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[Nettime-bold] /// 0100101110101101.ORG /// FTPermutations_1.2






/// FTPermutations /// http://www.webartery.com ///




# From:  Alan Sondheim <sondheim@p...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  12:05 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] Korea Web Art Festival





Just one point - in general I love hacking, altering, etc. - all these
things you're talking about. And I think there should be sites, shows,
etc. for all of this - I'm absolutely convinced. I also like hacking
etc. for political reasons. I show some simple stuff (if I can do it it
IS simple) in class, etc. But this is different to me - this clearly was
a very different form of intervention.

You either treat the audience/viewer/artist with respect or you don't. I
wouldn't see this so much as a problem - except that there is a
resurgence of the idea of tough, male, aggressive, etc., art online
(without the usual deconstructions), whereas at least in the so-called
artworlds, these very terms are problematized. As if making the work
carries its own context - and the context is very old, oldfashioned,
tiring, etc. etc.

I'm just not in a good mood. I actually nominated 01etc. for a show and
would do it again immediately. But I think more than ever it can be
hypocritical to, on one hand decry the hideousness of US/Israeli foreign
policy for its unsolicited and violent attacks - with explanation - and
on the other, to support the same online - with explanation. If Talan's
or others' works were compromised - if he were foreclosed with the old
Lyotardian differend, I don't care so much for the explanation - unless
it was a mistake, and 01etc. doesn't make many of them.

Apologies again to everyone, including 01etc.; as you can see I'm of
mixed feeling here, but I've been thinking a lot of the violence online,
my own included, and how to mitatigate this, work through, if not
consensus, at least a certain grace.
Alan




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# From:  Alan Sondheim <sondheim@p...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  12:09 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] Korea Web Art Festival





And who the fuck cares where net.art has moved? THERE ARE AUDIENCES/
VIEWERS. The "action" was important as was the bombing of Afghanistan -
which shows just how far Afghanistan has come from its roots. These
kinds of wars happen quite often and these reactions "SIMPLY" confirm

etc. etc.

Ah well - I do think the parallel is apt, precisely because of its
violence and violation - why not?

There's also LABOR involved, which is where the left comes in - if I was
invited and put up absolute crap that took several hundred hours to do -
let the viewers decide, not 01etc.

Grrr...

Alan




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# From:  Jennifer Ley <jtley@h...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  12:10 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] Korea Web Art Festival





"][D(NA).fence][" wrote:


>
>
> i c yr point alan, but u could rewire this 2 read "wot if
> hackers/alterators had no viable spaces in which 2 perform their
> interventions?".........

I'm not sure why we're defining hacking other peoples' files as
interventions.
An intervention does not have to physically destroy the thing on which
it seeks to comment.

>
>
> >And what does the PUBLIC or VIEWER get out of this, except for a lot
of
> >agro male crap? There's enough of that on the rest of the Net -

thank you Alan for saying that.  Read my mind.

Jen




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# From:  "Talan Memmott" <talan@m...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  12:12 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview




> talan, just wanted 2 ask if they actually _hacked_ the main korean
web.fest
> site [as in manifested control ova the main n.terface], or whether
they
> restricted themselves 2 alterations via their section only..

They 'attacked'
Mark Amerika
Beth Stryker and Sawad Brooks
YOUNG-HAE CHANG HEAVY_INDUSTRIES
Entropy8Zuper

Not their own....


..if they only
> re.wurked the site & had it linked from their project section, then
this
> makes the world of difference in terms of their
n.tent][ions][........also,
> where u familar with their wurk b4 agreeing 2 enter the festival?

I did not enter the festival... The work was solicited...

I am familiar with 0100101110101101.ORG... And, really whether I had or
not is NOT the issue... At some level though, I think the curator made
an error in selecting them without some condition that they would not
attack a show they had agreed to be in....




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# From:  "][D(NA).fence][" <netwurker@h...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  12:23 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] Korea Web Art Festival



At 04:04 PM 12/3/2001 -0800, you wrote:

>No files were destroyed.... Just moved, renamed, added to...

..via the main site, or via their section?


>In general, yes, I have liked what they have been doing.... On the
other
>hand this strikes me as severely misguided in context.... And, I truly
feel
>for the curator in this regard..... It seems. that the Korean Ministry
of
>Culture thinks of this whole thing -- the exhibition, the 'action'  --
as a
>rip-off....

rip-off of wot though?

>Here is the 0100101110101101.ORG statement -- post facto -- to the
>artists...
>"""""

thx 4 providing this..........

>the reactions of some of the involved artists show by themselves the
>importance of this action, if nothing more even just to show how far
from
>its roots is net.culture going -- and net.art in particular --. if
anybody
>of you have ever had a website in a do-it-yourselfe-server you'd know
that
>this kind of pranks happens quite often, and these reactions simply
confirm
>a complete lack of sense of humour and irony, which is something that
has
>always let the net being such a funny place. these reaciton reminds me
the
>one of traditional painters arguing at the Biennials because their
painting
>has been hanged a couple of centimeters too right, or the lights are
too
>strong, or the water is not cold enough and all this shit that have
always
>characterised the traditional art world. renaming some directories is
>nothing serious nor dangerous. taking yourselves too seriously can get
>dangerous.
>"""""


hmm. so many s.sues here...in terms of this b.ing a protest against the
di][e][lution of the roots of net.culture, i'd agree with their n.tent
but not the concrete exe.cution..........the pranks & humour angle seems
2 act 2 trivialise their action......

..then again, this hinges on whether 0100101110101101.ORG hacked the
site or offered their take from their own area...........


>I guess this was done to save the soul of the likes of me.....[?]

heh.


>OK......  But really, the action in this context seems rather
adolescent....
>And, in another regard one that seizes power in the name of some
nostalgic
>political ideal...

again, hinges on how they carried it out........


>Yes, agreed net.culture has moved from its roots.... What does fucking
up
>peoples work have to do with that...

everything, i terms of x.posing the growing trend 2 isolate & clinically
isolate, remove & recode terminology, facets & core l.ements of
net.wurked art & mish-mash them in2 a representational system d.void of
any contextual loading..........again, i'll wait till i find out the
logistics of the fucking up_ b4 i go on with this line.......

>Mez's point:
>
>""""
>in terms of it  _corrupting_ a show d.signed 2 run in][tandem][side a
>gallery/museum
>frame.wurk ][in terms of .wav ramifications][, then
0100101110101101.ORG
>has succeeded......
>""""
>Suceeded in really doing what, pointing to what, proving what.....?
That
>servers are vulnerable....?   That they can get someone in the real
world
>fired...?

talam , again will wait till i find out the specifics then will answer
this.......i realise this must be a sensitive point at the mo, 7 don't
mean 2 aggrevate the situaion, but do feel this n.tervention raises
important s.sues......

cheers,
mez




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# From:  "][D(NA).fence][" <netwurker@h...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  12:43 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] Korea Web Art Festival



At 07:10 PM 12/3/2001 -0500, you wrote:

>I'm not sure why we're defining hacking other peoples' files as
>interventions.  An
>intervention does not have to physically destroy the thing on which it
>seeks to
>comment.


absolutely, jen, which is y i'm trying 2 ascertain the parameters of wot
took place......


cheers,
mez




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# From:  "][D(NA).fence][" <netwurker@h...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  12:48 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview



At 04:12 PM 12/3/2001 -0800, you wrote:

>They 'attacked'
>Mark Amerika
>Beth Stryker and Sawad Brooks
>YOUNG-HAE CHANG HEAVY_INDUSTRIES
>Entropy8Zuper
>
>Not their own....


right, so this means that when a user typed in
http://www.koreawebart.org/

they were confronted with a web n.terface that mixed up the links,
directory/file structures in terms of the artists presented? or did a
user have to click on  0100101110101101.ORG in order 2 get 2 the altered
version?

sorry 2 b.labour this, but this is a crucial point for me.......


>I did not enter the festival... The work was solicited...

ok.

>I am familiar with 0100101110101101.ORG... And, really whether I had or
not
>is NOT the issue...


ok, was just curious!!


>At some level though, I think the curator made an error in selecting
them
>without some condition that they would not attack a show they had
agreed to
>be in....

d.pends on the nature of the 'attack'...is the interface still messed
up?

cheers,
mez




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# From:  Alan Sondheim <sondheim@p...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  12:51 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview





Was thinking more about this. There's also the fact that Korea is barely
a developed nation - this is early on for them. So we are angered by the
US closure of internet ISPs in the Sudan - but we put up with this -
because this is "art" and the other is "violation."

Grrr...

Alan




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# From:  "][D(NA).fence][" <netwurker@h...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  12:57 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview



At 07:51 PM 12/3/2001 -0500, you wrote:


>Was thinking more about this. There's also the fact that Korea is
barely a
>developed nation - this is early on for them. So we are angered by the
US
>closure of internet ISPs in the Sudan - but we put up with this -
because
>this is "art" and the other is "violation."
>
>Grrr...
>
>Alan


...i'm waiting talan's answer regarding how the n.tervention was carried
out be making judgements......

cheers,
mez




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# From:  "][D(NA).fence][" <netwurker@h...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  1:15 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview



oops, that should have read "b4 making judgements'........




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# From:  "Talan Memmott" <talan@m...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  1:36 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview




I think most all has been straightened out.....

ANSWRZ

>>No files were destroyed.... Just moved, renamed, added to...

> ..via the main site, or via their section?

FROM their directory into the directories of OTHERS...  Does not affect
the entire site -- but specific pieces...

> right, so this means that when a user typed in
> http://www.koreawebart.org/
>
> they were confronted with a web n.terface that mixed up the links,
> directory/file structures in terms of the artists presented? or did a
user
> have to click on  0100101110101101.ORG in order 2 get 2 the altered
version?
>
> sorry 2 b.labour this, but this is a crucial point for me.......

Not from the home page... But when you went to the OTHER artist's
works...
The User did NOT have to go to the 01etc.org site to see this...
Essentially making the work of others not work or look like crap.

> >At some level though, I think the curator made an error in selecting
them
> >without some condition that they would not attack a show they had
agreed to
> >be in....
>
> d.pends on the nature of the 'attack'...is the interface still messed
up?

I don't think it depends on how this went down... Though I do understand
your distinction between their own directory and those of the other
artists...


>> Suceeded in really doing what, pointing to what, proving what.....?
That
>> servers are vulnerable....?   That they can get someone in the real
world
>> fired...?

> talam , again will wait till i find out the specifics then will answer

> this.......i realise this must be a sensitive point at the mo, 7 don't
mean
> 2 aggrevate the situaion, but do feel this n.tervention raises
important s.sues......

How does the intent make it valid that someone is getting fired?  As
well, the issue of destroying the work of another, holding it hostage,
altering it without some level of understanding is just plain
disrespectful of the other participating artists.


>> At some level though, I think the curator made an error in selecting
them
>> without some condition that they would not attack a show they had
agreed to
>> be in....

> d.pends on the nature of the 'attack'...is the interface still messed
up?

In consideration of the issues they claim to be addressing by doing
this...
And, that the curator and artists had no knowledge of this beforehand...
I find it difficult to validate this 'action' [as it were]....

This, to me, is a misguided 'action' that doesn't represent much beyond
a prank... However with real implication that have nothing to do with
the network and much to do with the perception of web/net art in Korea
[at least]...

The Korean Ministry of Culture is asking the curator to pay back all the
money for the development of the site, infra-structure, the festival and
such.... And, will be out of a job... Kicked out Korea if he cannot
pay...




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# From:  "][D(NA).fence][" <netwurker@h...>
# Date:  Tue Dec 4, 2001  2:07 am
# Subject:  Re: [webartery] found the 0100101110101101.ORG n.terview



At 05:36 PM 12/3/2001 -0800, you wrote:


>FROM their directory into the directories of OTHERS...  Does not affect
the
>entire site -- but specific pieces...


ah, ok. this does make a difference in terms of
][negative][m.pact.........


> > right, so this means that when a user typed in
> > http://www.koreawebart.org/
> >
> > they were confronted with a web n.terface that mixed up the links,
> > directory/file structures in terms of the artists presented? or did
a user
> > have to click on  0100101110101101.ORG in order 2 get 2 the altered
version?
> >
> > sorry 2 b.labour this, but this is a crucial point for me.......
>
>Not from the home page... But when you went to the OTHER artist's
works...
>The User did NOT have to go to the 01etc.org site to see this...
>Essentially making the work of others not work or look like crap.

ok.........

> > >At some level though, I think the curator made an error in
selecting them
> > >without some condition that they would not attack a show they had
agreed
>to
> > >be in....
> >
> > d.pends on the nature of the 'attack'...is the interface still
messed up?
>
>I don't think it depends on how this went down... Though I do
understand
>your distinction between their own directory and those of the other
>artists...

yes, this is m.portant. i'd like 2 make it clear here that i'm not
trying 2 d.fend 0100101110101101.ORG's actions, but rather open up room
4 discussion regarding this action/n.tervention/attack, & the idea of
co-opting a medium to reflect aspects that d.fine it......woteva u term
it. i term it n.tervention. interference would probably b a more
accurate term.


> >> Suceeded in really doing what, pointing to what, proving
what.....?  That
> >> servers are vulnerable....?   That they can get someone in the real
world
> >> fired...?
>
> > talam , again will wait till i find out the specifics then will
answer
> > this.......i realise this must be a sensitive point at the mo, 7
don't
>mean
> > 2 aggrevate the situaion, but do feel this n.tervention raises
important
>s.sues......
>
>How does the intent make it valid that someone is getting fired?

talan, i was in no way trying 2 assert that 0100101110101101.ORG's
n.tent made it valid 2 make some1 redundant. wot i was trying 2 x.amine
[from my own perspective, not from an absolutist POV] was the mechanism
& result of this n.tervention..........

>As well,
>the issue of destroying the work of another, holding it hostage,
altering it
>without some level of understanding is just plain disrespectful of the
other
>participating artists.

yes, i can c how wood c it this way, & again, i don't think
0100101110101101.ORG polished their n.tervention in terms of presenting
a piece that had obvious ramification in terms of other's wurk [&
employment].


> >> At some level though, I think the curator made an error in
selecting them
> >> without some condition that they would not attack a show they had
agreed
>to
> >> be in....
>
> > d.pends on the nature of the 'attack'...is the interface still
messed up?
>
>In consideration of the issues they claim to be addressing by doing
this...
>And, that the curator and artists had no knowledge of this
beforehand... I
>find it difficult to validate this 'action' [as it were]....

ok! i can understand y u would find it difficult 2 validate, of course,
again, i'm not trying 2 validate 0100101110101101.ORG actions, but
rather look @ the idea of re.n.venting & stylising traditional
presentation mechanism & realigning them in2 another ][net.reflected][
di.mension.

[ i must use terminology that comes across as absolutist. i'll try and
wurk on that].


>This, to me, is a misguided 'action' that doesn't represent much beyond
a
>prank... However with real implication that have nothing to do with the

>network and much to do with the perception of web/net art in Korea [at
>least]...

ok.

>The Korean Ministry of Culture is asking the curator to pay back all
the
>money for the development of the site, infra-structure, the festival
and
>such.... And, will be out of a job... Kicked out Korea if he cannot
pay...

wow, that's very rough...there isn't anyway of switching the
responsibility on2 0100101110101101.ORG's shoulders?


chunks,
mez




/// FTPermutations /// http://www.webartery.com ///








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