Geert Lovink [c] on Tue, 22 Nov 2005 23:04:23 +0100 (CET)

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Re: <nettime> Paris Burning [u]

may i add this interview with alain finkelkraut and a response by canadian writer
edna paris? i found them on the just-watch list. i really like this debate on
nettime, however the (relative) absence of french postings slightly worries me.
maybe i am wrong. i understood there was and still is debate on the nettime-fr
list. is that correct?  /geert


Alain Finkielkraut. "When an Arab torches a school, it's rebellion.  When a white
guy does it, it's fascism. I'm 'color blind.' Evil is evil, no matter what color
it is. And this evil, for the Jew that I am, is completely intolerable."

What sort of Frenchmen are they?

By Dror Mishani and Aurelia Smotriez

PARIS - The first thing the French-Jewish philosopher Alain Finkielkraut said to
us when we met one evening at Paris' elegant Le Rostand cafe, where the interior
is decorated with Oriental-style pictures and the terrace faces the Luxembourg
Gardens, was "I heard that even Haaretz published an article identifying with the

This remark, uttered with some vehemence, pretty much sums up the feelings of
Finkielkraut - one of the most prominent philosophers in France in the past 30
years - ever since the violent riots began on October 27 in the impoverished
neighborhoods that surround Paris and spread with surprising speed to similar
suburbs throughout the country. He has been following the events through the
media, keeping up with all the news reports and commentary, and has been appalled
at every article that shows understanding for or identification with "the rebels"
(and in the French press, there are plenty). He has a lot to say, but it appears
that France isn't ready to listen - that his France has already surrendered to a
blinding, "false discourse" that conceals the stark truth of its situation. The
things he is saying to us in the course of our conversation, he repeatedly
emphasizes, are not things he can say in France anymore.  It's impossible, perhaps
even dangerous, to say these things in France now.

Indeed, in the lively intellectual debate that has been taking place on the pages
of the French newspapers ever since the rioting started, a debate in which
France's most illustrious minds are taking part, Finkielkraut's is a deviant, even
very deviant, voice. Primarily because it is not emanating from the throat of a
member of Jean Marie Le Pen's National Front, but from that of a philosopher
formerly considered to be one of the most eminent spokesmen of the French left -
one of the generation of philosophers who emerged at the time of the May 1968
student revolt.

In the French press, the riots in the suburbs are perceived mainly as an economic
problem, as a violent reaction to severe economic hardship and discrimination. In
Israel, by comparison, there is sometimes a tendency to view them as violence
whose origins are religious or at least ethnic - that is, to see them as part of
an Islamic struggle. Where would you situate yourself in respect to these

Finkielkraut: "In France, they would like very much to reduce these riots to their
social dimension, to see them as a revolt of youths from the suburbs against their
situation, against the discrimination they suffer from, against the unemployment.
The problem is that most of these youths are blacks or Arabs, with a Muslim
identity. Look, in France there are also other immigrants whose situation is
difficult - Chinese, Vietnamese, Portuguese - and they're not taking part in the
riots. Therefore, it is clear that this is a revolt with an ethno-religious

"What is its origin? Is this the response of the Arabs and blacks to the racism of
which they are victims? I don't believe so, because this violence had very
troubling precursors, which cannot be reduced to an unalloyed reaction to French

"Let's take, for example, the incidents at the soccer match between France and
Algeria that was held a few years ago. The match took place in Paris, at the Stade
de France. People say the French national team is admired by all because it is
black-blanc-beur ["black-white-Arab" - a reference to the colors on France's
tricolor flag and a symbol of the multiculturalism of French society - D.M.].
Actually, the national team today is black-black-black, which arouses ridicule
throughout Europe. If you point this out in France, they'll put you in jail, but
it's interesting nevertheless that the French national soccer team is composed
almost exclusively of black players.

"Anyway, this team is perceived as a symbol of an open, multiethnic society and so
on. The crowd in the stadium, young people of Algerian descent, booed this team
throughout the whole game! They also booed during the playing of the national
anthem, the `Marseillaise,' and the match was halted when the youths broke onto
the field with Algerian flags.

"And then there are the lyrics of the rap songs. Very troubling lyrics.  A real
call to revolt. There's one called Dr. R., I think, who sings: `I piss on France,
I piss on De Gaulle' and so on. These are very violent declarations of hatred for
France. All of this hatred and violence is now coming out in the riots. To see
them as a response to French racism is to be blind to a broader hatred: the hatred
for the West, which is deemed guilty of all crimes.  France is being exposed to
this now."

In other words, as you see it, the riots aren't directed at France, but at the
entire West?

"No, they are directed against France as a former colonial power, against France
as a European country. Against France, with its Christian or Judeo-Christian


Alain Finkielkraut, 56, has come a long way from the events of May 1968 to the
riots of October 2005. A graduate of one of the chief breeding grounds for French
intellectuals, the Ecole Normal Superieure, in the early 1970s, Finkielkraut was
identified with a group known as "the new philosophers" (Bernard Henri-Levy, Andre
Glucksman, Pascal Bruckner and others) - young philosophers, many of them Jewish,
who made a critical break with the Marxist ideology of May 1968 and with the
French Communist Party, and denounced its impact on French culture and society.

In 1987, he published his book "The Defeat of the Mind," in which he outlined his
opposition to post- modernist philosophy, with its erasure of the boundaries
between high and low culture and its cultural relativism.  And thus he began to
earn a name as a "conservative" philosopher and scathing critic of the
multicultural and post-colonial intellectual currents, as someone who preached a
return to France's republican values. Finkielkraut was one of the staunchest
defenders of the controversial law prohibiting head-coverings in schools, which
has roiled France in recent years.

Over time, he also became a symbol of the "involved intellectual," as exemplified
by the postwar Jean-Paul Sartre - a philosopher who doesn't abstain from
participation in political life, but instead writes in the newspapers, gives
interviews and devotes himself to humanitarian causes such as halting the ethnic
cleansing in Bosnia or the slaughter in Rwanda. The danger he wishes to stand up
to today, in light of the riots, is the growing hatred for the West and its
penetration into the French education system.

Do you think that the source of the hatred for the West among the French who are
taking part in the riots lies in religion, in Islam?

"We need to be clear on this. This is a very difficult question and we must strive
to maintain the language of truth. We tend to fear the language of truth, for
`noble' reasons. We prefer to say the `youths' instead of `blacks' or `Arabs.' But
the truth cannot be sacrificed, no matter how noble the reasons. And, of course,
we also must avoid generalizations: This isn't about blacks and Arabs as a whole,
but about some blacks and Arabs. And, of course, religion - not as religion, but
as an anchor of identity, if you will - plays a part. Religion as it appears on
the Internet, on the Arab television stations, serves as an anchor of identity for
some of these youths.

"Unlike others, I have not spoken about an `intifada' of the suburbs, and I don't
think this lexicon ought to be used. But I have found that they are also sending
the youngest people to the front lines of the struggle. You've seen this in Israel
- they send the youngest ones to the front because it's impossible to put them in
jail when they're arrested. But still, here there are no bombings and we're in a
different stage: I think it's the stage of the anti-republican pogrom. There are
people in France who hate France as a republic."

But why? For what reason?

"Why have parts of the Muslim-Arab world declared war on the West? The republic is
the French version of Europe. They, and those who justify them, say that it
derives from the colonial breakdown. Okay, but one mustn't forget that the
integration of the Arab workers in France during the time of colonial rule was
much easier. In other words, this is belated hatred. Retrospective hatred.

"We are witness to an Islamic radicalization that must be explained in its
entirety before we get to the French case, to a culture that, instead of dealing
with its problems, searches for an external guilty party. It's easier to find an
external guilty party. It's tempting to tell yourself that in France you're
neglected, and to say, `Gimme, gimme.' It hasn't worked like that for anyone. It
can't work."


But what appears to disturb Finkielkraut even more than this "hatred for the
West," is what he sees as its internalization in the French education system, and
the identification with it by French intellectuals. In his view, this
identification and internalization - which are expressed in shows of understanding
for the sources of the violence and in the post-colonial mindset that is
permeating the education system - are threatening not only France as a whole, but
the country's Jews, too, because they are creating an infrastructure for the new

"In the United States, too, we're witnessing an Islamization of the blacks. It was
Louis Farrakhan, in America, who asserted for the first time that the Jews played
a central role in creating slavery. And the main spokesman for this theology in
France today is Dieudonne [a black stand-up artist, who caused an uproar with his
anti-Semitic statements - D.M.]. Today he is the true patron of anti-Semitism in
France, and not Le Pen's National Front.

"But in France, instead of fighting his kind of talk, they're actually doing what
he asks: changing the teaching of colonial history and the history of slavery in
the schools. Now they teach colonial history as an exclusively negative history.
We don't teach anymore that the colonial project also sought to educate, to bring
civilization to the savages. They only talk about it as an attempt at
exploitation, domination and plunder.

"But what does Dieudonne really want? He wants a `Holocaust' for Arabs and blacks,
too. But if you want to put the Holocaust and slavery on the same plane, then you
have to lie. Because [slavery] wasn't a Holocaust. And [the Holocaust] wasn't `a
crime against humanity,' because it wasn't just a crime. It was something
ambivalent. The same is true of slavery. It began long before the West. In fact,
what sets the West apart when it comes to slavery is that it was the one to
eliminate it. The elimination of slavery is a European and American thing. But
this truth about slavery cannot be taught in schools.

"That's why these events sadden me so greatly; not so much because they happened.
After all, you'd have to be deaf and blind not to see that they would happen. But
because of the interpretations that have accompanied them.  These dealt a decisive
blow to the France I loved. And I've always said that life will become impossible
for Jews in France when Francophobia triumphs. And that's what will happen. The
Jews understand what I've said just now.  Suddenly, they look around, and they see
all the `bobo' (French slang for bourgeois-bohemians) singing songs of praise to
the new `wretched of the earth' [Finkielkraut is alluding here to the book by the
Martinique-born, anti-colonialist philosopher Franz Fanon - D.M.] and asking
themselves: What is this country? What's happened to it?"

Since you view this as an Islamic assault, how do you explain the fact that Jews
have not been attacked in the recent events?

"First of all, they say that one synagogue has been attacked. But I think that
what we've experienced is an anti-republican pogrom. They tell us that these
neighborhoods are neglected and the people are in distress. What connection is
there between poverty and despair, and wreaking destruction and setting fire to
schools? I don't think any Jew would ever do a thing like this."


Finkielkraut continues: "What unites the Jews - the secular, the religious, the
Peace Now crowd, the Greater Land of Israel crowd - is one word: shul (synagogue;
used here as religious study hall). That's what holds us all together as Jews. And
I have been just horrified by these acts, which kept repeating themselves, and
horrified even more by the understanding with which they were received in France.
These people were treated like rebels, like revolutionaries. This is the worst
thing that could happen to my country. And I'm very miserable because of it. Why?
Because the only way to overcome it is to make them feel ashamed. Shame is the
starting point of ethics. But instead of making them feel ashamed, we gave them
legitimacy. They're `interesting.' They're `the wretched of the earth.'

"Imagine for a moment that they were whites, like in Rostock in Germany. Right
away, everyone would have said: `Fascism won't be tolerated.'  When an Arab
torches a school, it's rebellion. When a white guy does it, it's fascism. I'm
`color blind.' Evil is evil, no matter what color it is. And this evil, for the
Jew that I am, is completely intolerable.

"Moreover, there's a contradiction here. Because if these suburbs were truly in a
state of total neglect, there wouldn't be any gymnasiums to torch, there wouldn't
be schools and buses. If there are gymnasiums and schools and buses, it's because
someone made an effort. Maybe not enough of one, but an effort."

Still, the unemployment rate in the suburbs is very extreme: Almost 40 percent of
young people aged 15-25 have no chance of finding a job.

"Let's return to the shul for a moment. When parents send you to school, is it in
order for you to find a job? I was sent to school in order to learn. Culture and
education have a justification per se. You go to school to learn. That is the
purpose of school. And these people who are destroying schools - what are they
really saying? Their message is not a cry for help or a demand for more schools or
better schools. It's a desire to eliminate the intermediaries that stand between
them and their objects of desire. And what are their objects of desire? Simple:
money, designer labels, sometimes girls. And this is something for which our
society surely bears responsibility. Because they want everything immediately, and
what they want is only the consumer-society ideal. It's what they see on


Finkielkraut, as his name indicates, is himself the child of an immigrant family:
His parents came to France from Poland; their parents perished at Auschwitz. In
recent years, his Judaism has become a central theme in his writing, too,
especially since the start of the second intifada and the rise in anti-Semitism in
France. He is one of the leaders of the struggle against anti-Semitism in France,
and also one of the most prominent supporters of Israel and its policies, in the
face of Israel's many critics in France.

His standing as a key spokesperson within the Jewish community in France has
grown, particularly since he began hosting a weekly talk show on the JCR Jewish
radio station, one of four Jewish stations in the country. On this program,
Finkielkraut discusses current events; for the past two weeks, the riots in the
suburbs were naturally the main topic. Because of his standing as one of the most
widely heard Jewish intellectuals within France's Jewish community, his
perspective on the events will certainly have an influence on the way in which
they are perceived and understood among French Jewry - and perhaps also on the
future of the relationship between the Jewish and Muslim communities. But this
Jewish philosopher and tenacious fighter of anti-Semitism is using these latest
events to declare war - on the "war on racism."

"I was born in Paris, but I'm the son of Polish immigrants. My father was deported
from France. His parents were deported and murdered in Auschwitz. My father
returned from Auschwitz to France. This country deserves our hatred: What it did
to my parents was much more violent than what it did to Africans. What did it do
to Africans? It did only good. It put my father in hell for five years. And I was
never brought up to hate. And today, this hatred that the blacks have is even
greater than that of the Arabs."

But do you, of all people, who fight against anti-Jewish racism, maintain that the
discrimination and racism these youths are talking about doesn't actually exist?

"Of course discrimination exists. And certainly there are French racists. French
people who don't like Arabs and blacks. And they'll like them even less now, when
they know how much they're hated by them. So this discrimination will only
increase, in terms of housing and work, too.

"But imagine that you're running a restaurant, and you're anti-racist, and you
think that all people are equal, and you're also Jewish. In other words, talking
about inequality between the races is a problem for you. And let's say that a
young man from the suburbs comes in who wants to be a waiter. He talks the talk of
the suburbs. You won't hire him for the job. It's very simple. You won't hire him
because it's impossible. He has to represent you and that requires discipline and
manners, and a certain way of speaking. And I can tell you that French whites who
are imitating the code of behavior of the suburbs - and there is such a thing -
will run into the same exact problem. The only way to fight discrimination is to
restore the requirements, the educational seriousness. This is the only way. But
you're not allowed to say that, either. I can't. It's common sense, but they
prefer to propound the myth of `French racism.' It's not right.

"We live today in an environment of a `perpetual war on racism' and the nature of
this anti-racism also needs to be examined. Earlier, I heard someone on the radio
who was opposed to Interior Minister Sarkozy's decision to expel anyone who
doesn't have French citizenship and takes part in the riots and is arrested. And
what did he say? That this was `ethnic cleansing.' During the war in Yugoslavia I
fought against the ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Bosnia.  Not a single French
Muslim organization stood by our side. They bestirred themselves solely to support
the Palestinians. And to talk about `ethnic cleansing' now? There was a single
person killed in the riots. Actually, there were two [more], but it was an
accident. They weren't being chased, but they fled to an electrical transformer
even though the warning signs on it were huge.

"But I think that the lofty idea of `the war on racism' is gradually turning into
a hideously false ideology. And this anti-racism will be for the 21st century what
communism was for the 20th century. A source of violence.  Today, Jews are
attacked in the name of anti-racist discourse: the separation fence, `Zionism is

"It's the same thing in France. One must be wary of the `anti-racist' ideology. Of
course, there is a problem of discrimination. There's a xenophobic reflex, that's
true, but the portrayal of events as a response to French racism is totally false.
Totally false."

And what do you think about the steps the French government has taken to quell the
violence? The state of emergency, the curfew?

"This is so normal. What we have experienced is terrible. You have to understand
that the ones who have the least power in a society are the authorities, the
rulers. Yes, they are responsible for maintaining order. And this is important
because without them, some sort of self-defense would be organized and people
would shoot. So they're maintaining order, and doing it with extraordinary
caution. They should be saluted.

"In May 1968 there was a totally innocent movement compared to the one we're
seeing now, and there was violence on the part of the police. Here they're tossing
Molotov cocktails, firing live bullets. And there hasn't been a single incident of
police violence. [Since this interview, several police officers have been arrested
on suspicion of using violence - D.M.] There's no precedent for this. How to
impose order? By using `common sense' methods, which by the way, according to a
poll by La Parisienne newspaper, 73 percent of the French support.

"But apparently it's already too late to make them feel ashamed, since on the
radio, on television and in the newspapers, or in most of them, they're holding a
prettifying mirror up to the rioters. They're `interesting' people, they're
nurturing their suffering and they understand their despair. In addition, there's
the great perversion of the spectacle: They're burning cars in order to see it on
television. It makes them feel `important' - that they live in an `important
neighborhood.' The pursuit of this spectacle ought to be analyzed. It's creating
totally perverted effects. And the perversion of the spectacle is accompanied by
totally perverted analyses."


Since the start of the riots in the suburbs, the press throughout Europe has been
addressing the issue of multiculturalism, its possibilities and its costs.
Finkielkraut expressed his opinion on this question, which is also occupying the
minds of many writers in Israel, many years ago when he came to the defense of the
republican model and its symbol, the republican school, against the intellectual
currents that sought to open French society and its education system to the
cultural variety brought in by the immigrants. While many intellectuals perceive
the latest events as deriving from insufficient openness to the "other,"
Finkielkraut actually sees them as proof that cultural openness is doomed to end
in disaster.

"They're saying that the republican model has collapsed in these riots.  But the
multicultural model isn't in any better shape. Not in Holland or in England. In
Bradford and Birmingham there were riots with an ethnic background, too. And,
secondly, the republican school, the symbol of the republican model, hasn't
existed for a long time already. I know the republican school; I studied in it. It
was an institution with strict demands, a bleak, unpleasant place that built high
walls to keep out the noise from outside. Thirty years of foolish reforms have
altered our landscape. The republican school has been replaced by an `educational
community' that is horizontal rather than vertical. The curricula have been made
easier, the noise from outside has come in, society has come inside the school.

"This means that what we're seeing today is actually the failure of the `nice'
post-republican model. But the problem with this model is that it is fueled by its
own failures: Every fiasco is a reason to become even more extreme. The school
will become even `nicer.' When really, given what we're seeing, greater strictness
and more exacting standards are the minimum that we need to ask for. If not,
before long we'll have `courses in crime.'

"This is an evolution that characterizes democracy. Democracy, as a process, and
Tocqueville showed this, does not abide selfishness. Within democracy, it's hard
to tolerate non-democratic spaces. Everything has to be done democratically in a
democracy, but school cannot be this way. It just can't. The asymmetry is glaring:
between he who knows and he who doesn't know, between he who brings a world with
him and he who is new in this world.

"The democratic process delegitimizes this asymmetry. It's a general process in
the Western world, but in France it takes a more pathetic form, because one of the
things that characterizes France is its strict education. France was built around
its schools."

Many of the youths say the problem is that they don't feel French, that France
doesn't really regard them as French.

"The problem is that they need to regard themselves as French. If the immigrants
say `the French' when they're referring to the whites, then we're lost. If their
identity is located somewhere else and they're only in France for utilitarian
reasons, then we're lost. I have to admit that the Jews are also starting to use
this phrase. I hear them saying `the French' and I can't stand it. I say to them,
`If for you France is a utilitarian matter, but your identity is Judaism, then be
honest with yourselves: You have Israel.' This is really a bigger problem: We're
living in a post-national society in which for everyone the state is just
utilitarian, a big insurance company. This is an extremely serious development.

"But if they have a French identity card, then they're French. And if not, they
have the right to go. They say, `I'm not French. I live in France and I'm also in
a bad economic state.' No one's holding them here. And this is precisely where the
lie begins. Because if it were the neglect and poverty, then they would go
somewhere else. But they know very well that anywhere else, and especially in the
countries from whence they came, their situation would be worse, as far as rights
and opportunities go."

But the problem today is the integration into French society of young men and
women who are from the third generation. This isn't a wave of new immigrants. They
were born in France. They have nowhere to go.

"This feeling, that they are not French, isn't something they get from school. In
France, as you perhaps know, even children who are in the country illegally are
still registered for school. There's something surprising, something paradoxical,
here: The school could call the police, since the child is in France illegally.
Yet the illegality isn't taken into account by the school. So there are schools
and computers everywhere, too. But then the moment comes when an effort must be
made. And the people that are fomenting the riots aren't prepared to make this
effort. Ever.

"Take the language, for example. You say they are third generation. So why do they
speak French the way they do? It's butchered French - the accent, the words, the
syntax. Is it the school's fault? The teachers' fault?"

Since the Arabs and blacks apparently have no intention of leaving France, how do
you suggest that the problem be dealt with?

"This problem is the problem of all the countries of Europe. In Holland, they've
been confronting it since the murder of Theo van Gogh. The question isn't what is
the best model of integration, but just what sort of integration can be achieved
with people who hate you."

And what will happen in France?

"I don't know. I'm despairing. Because of the riots and because of their
accompaniment by the media. The riots will subside, but what does this mean? There
won't be a return to quiet. It will be a return to regular violence. So they'll
stop because there is a curfew now, and the foreigners are afraid and the drug
dealers also want the usual order restored. But they'll gain support and
encouragement for their anti-republican violence from the repulsive discourse of
self-criticism over their slavery and colonization. So that's it: There won't be a
return to quiet, but a return to routine violence."

So your worldview doesn't stand a chance anymore?

"No, I've lost. As far as anything relating to the struggle over school is
concerned, I've lost. It's interesting, because when I speak the way I'm speaking
now, a lot of people agree with me. Very many. But there's something in France - a
kind of denial whose origin lies in the bobo, in the sociologists and social
workers - and no one dares say anything else. This struggle is lost. I've been
left behind."



Alain Finkielkraut is right when he says he's been left behind - and rightly so.
He may be a 'philosopher' in the French tradition of public intellectuals, but
he's no historian and he's out of touch.

The events in the suburban ghettos are directly linked to French-Algerian history.
When Algeria became independent in 1962, many Muslims, especially those who were
identified with France's colonial rule, thought it would be safer and wiser to
leave the country. France was the obvious place to go. But they were not welcomed,
especially by the Algerie Francaise crowd of right wing nationalists who saw in
them de Gaulle's "betrayal." They were the colonized and therefore inferior.  They
were the former enemy. They were a minority of colour. They needed help to
integrate. They didn't receive it.

Algerian Jews also came at the same time and for the same reasons - changing the
character of the French Jewish community, the largest in Europe, from Ashkenazi to
Sephardic, from relatively assimilated to more religiously observant. These groups
know each other very well, indeed, having lived together in relative peace for
about 500 years in a shared culture. But the Algerian Jews had been granted French
citizenship a hundred years earlier, while the Muslims had not, so the former had
a leg-up in the immigration stakes. Also, the Jews were white and had communal
institutions to help them.

It's a lot more complicated than M. Finkielkraut would have us imagine.  Add to
the mix the Intifadas in a territory both groups hold dear and the reach for
Muslim identity in the ghettos since they were never going to be "French." Add
9/11 to the mix and the new ideology of a clash of civilizations being pushed by
Finkielkraut and other hardliners in the American tradition. It seems to me that
the only future for any minority in France now - Arabs, Jews, what have you - will
lie in the country's ability to shift away from its failed assimilationist
discourse in favour of multiculturalism and diversity.  The newer populations are
not going to go away, in spite of Jean-Marie Le Pen. Is this possible in the land
where "equality" has always meant a striving for "sameness?" One can hope, but
things do not look bright


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