Pit Schultz on Tue, 18 May 1999 23:27:39 +0200 (CEST)

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<nettime> 'i want to join a suicide cult' 2/2

Audience: (In unison) Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
Springer: Yeah. Thank you. OK, we've been talking to leaders of this cult.
It's basically a suicide cult and a--they believe in cannibalism; they put
it in terms of saving the environment. And it seems pretty crazy, and a lot
of--and, you know, we're kind of laughing along the way, except that there
are people that listen to this, that join the cult, and that's what's
scary; that's what's dangerous.
Grace: Jerry, it's not basically a suicide cult.
Springer: Yeah. Well, that's...
Grace: You--you d--haven't bothered doing your homework. You haven't read
up on it. You've made it into that.
Springer: Yeah, well, all I did--all we are doing--all we are doing is
reading your literature. We're d--reading your address on the radio.
That--we are quoting you. You are the guys that have said this...
Vermin X: Out of context; totally out of context.
Springer: OK.
Please welcome the leader of the Creator's Rights Party, Neal Horsley, and
two of his supporters, Vauncile and Jane, to the show.
You've said--I understand you don't like what they believe in, but, in
fairness, they can believe whatever they want; they shouldn't be trying to
recruit people to commit suicide and cannibalism and stuff like that. But
they're entitled in this country to believe anything they want. Isn't that
Mr. Neal Horsley (Leader of The Creator's Rights Party): Jerry, this was
n--no, the First Amendment--Jerry ...
Vermin X: That's like Neal Horsley is entitled to support murderers.
Springer: Wait a second, I want to just talk to him--oh, shut up!
Mr. Horsley: The First...
Springer: Mr. Horsley, go ahead.
Audience: (In unison) Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
Springer: All right. OK, shh. Just answer me.
Mr. Horsley: O--OK. The First Amendment says, Congress shall make no law
respecting the establishment of religion. What that meant was the federal
government was to get--not get involved in matters of religion and leave it
to the states to settle these matters. When the federal government said,
"We'll tell you what God's like," they made it so that all of us...
Springer: No, no, no, no, no!
Mr. Horsley: ...had to accept...
Springer: No!
Mr. Horsley: ...the government's definition of God...
Springer: No!
Mr. Horsley: ...that we c--I can't go to--I can't--I've got to let these
people believe that they've got...
Springer: Why? They've got...
Mr. Horsley: ...the right to believe what they believe. Yet they're
Springer: Of course they do. This is America! Of course they do.
Pastor Kim: This man wanted to hijack nuclear weapons and besiege the
(Unintelligible comments from panelists and Springer)
Springer: You're allowed to believe what you want.
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Mr. Horsley: They have the right to believe they can kill people, Jerry?
Springer: But there's a difference. Shh.
Mr. Horsley: No, there is no difference to--that's what--they're Incas.
Springer: Well, then give me a chance, I'll explain the difference.
Mr. Horsley: They're Incas in the government. OK.
Springer: If he wants to...
Vermin X: This man wants to secede from the Union, hijack the nuclear
weapons of Georgia, incite a civil war.
Springer: Do you want to secede from the Union? Do you--do you want to
secede from the Union?
Mr. Horsley: And yet he'll preach to me?
Rev. Korda: Look. Here, look. Look what we got. It's a nuclear bomb, Neal.
Don't you want to nuke the fags? Isn't that what you want?
Springer: What are you--what are you--OK, shh.
Mr. Horsley: No. No. What I want you to understand is before you will rule
this world...
Springer: All right. Everybody, sit down.
Mr. Horsley: ...there are people who will fight you to the death.
Springer: All right.
Mr. Horsley: That's what I want you to understand.
Rev. Korda: Ooh, I'm so scared.
Springer: OK.
Rev. Korda: I got Jesus on my side, man, you can't touch me! I've got
Springer: All right.
Rev. Korda: You can't touch me, baby! Jesus loves me. Jesus loves me.
(Unintelligible comments from panelists and Springer)
Chuck: Man, stop...
Springer: Sit down. Have a seat.
Mr. Horsley: This has nothing to do with Jesus and the Bible.
Rev. Korda: Jesus loves me.
Springer: Shh. Shh.
Vermin X: This man wants to arrest faggots.
Rev. Korda: Jesus squirts!
Springer: Shh. Let's hear from the--yes, ma'am, what do--what would you
like to say?
Vauncile (Grandmother Who Supports The Creator's Rights Party): I would
like to say that there is not enough...
Springer: Let's listen to her. Shh, shh, shh. OK.
Vauncile: ...money ever been minted that would have brought me into the
presence of such wicked people. But...
Vermin X: Whoo-hoo!
Grace: All right!
Springer: Let's listen.
Vauncile: But for the love of my Lord Jesus, who did more than this for
Pastor Kim: Let's give it to them.
Vauncile: ...that is my sole reason for being here. And I could...
Pastor Kim: We tried Jesus!
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Jane: Let's talk about what we're talking about. Let's talk about what
we're talking about.
Mr. Horsley: Let's talk about children.
Jane: This is serious. There are children that are y...
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Pastor Kim: Jane, you have nine children! You have nine children.
Springer: Shh. Will you let...
Jane: I do have nine children.
Springer: Shh. Be quiet. I want to--I want to hear what she says. Then you
can answer.
Jane: I do have nine children. I do have nine children.
Mr. Horsley: Yeah, but she loves people.
Springer: OK.
Jane: I--I have nine children. You probably have a--you probably have a
tape of one of my children. I had to bring the youngest here.
Springer: OK.
Grace: Listen...
Jane: She's five weeks old.
Grace: Let me just say something to Neal! I need to say something to Neal!
Springer: I want you to talk to me--I want you--just wait. I want her to
talk to Grace.
Grace: Neal says she loves people. If you...
Springer: You talk to Grace. What do you want to say to Grace? What do
Grace: ...love people...
Springer: OK.
Grace: ...you will not make any more people because the world is full of
Springer: OK, let her talk to you.
Grace: ...that needs all--that need--that need all kinds of care!
Springer: Shh. All right. OK. You talk to her or I'll clear the stage.
Grace: If you are selfish, you will have more kids.
Springer: OK. You talk to Grace. What do you want to say to Grace?
Vauncile: I would just like to say to Grace that Jesus died for you and he
loves you just as much as he does me.
Rev. Korda: Lame--that's so lame.
Vermin X: He committed suicide for you, ma'am.
Vauncile: ...and Jesus is--well, maybe--maybe he did.
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Vermin X: Jesus committed suicide. God's so sad.
Vauncile: Maybe he did.
Rev. Korda: And you ate him! You guys ate him! It was cannibalism. Didn't
Vauncile: But I came--I came here to acknowledge him...
Rev. Korda: Every day in the Catholic Church, you eat his body and you
drink his blood!
Springer: We'll have more when we come back. Stay with us.
Unidentified Crew Member #1: Guys, please, please, help me out, audience,
please. This way, this way.
Vermin X: All right. This is going rather well.
Crew Member #1: Keep them separated.
Unidentified Woman #1: I know.
Crew Member #2: OK. Got to keep them separated.
Springer: I tell you what, in the--i--during the break, I asked everyone
else on the stage to leave. They'll be back later in the show. But now I
just wanted a chance to talk to Grace one-on-one. Because, Grace, in a
sense, is the focus of the show because she is a--a woman who is making a
decision whether or not to join this organization. We call it a cult; you
suggest it's something different. And I guess without all the screaming and
yelling, you seem like a bright woman with strong views.
Grace: (Nods her head).
Springer: What I don't understand is, even assuming that your position is,
"I don't want to have children; there are too many people in the world; I
don't want to kill animals; I'll be a vegetarian," why can't you have those
views, which are very well-respected, without going to the extreme measure
of joining this group, which, you've got to admit, is a little out to
lunch, no? Go ahead.
Grace: What this group is doing--the reason I want to join--is that they
are bringing up the issue of overpopulation to places that it wouldn't have
been brought before; for example, here. I think it's really important. I
think that we live in desperate times.
Springer: But he gets on the air--and I'm not making this up, OK?
Grace: Mm-hmm.
Springer: I'm not making it up. I'm reading you a quote--he was on radio in
Los Angeles, the second largest city in America--a heck of a lot of young
people listen to this stuff--and he is saying--and I said it in the
beginning, this is his quote, Reverend Korda: "If you are depressed or ill
or feel burdened by today's world problems, let me suggest a way to give
your life new meaning: Kill yourself." He's telling pe--kids to get guns,
to have razors--"Rope is good, car exhaust is good." Please don't sit there
as an intelligent woman and tell me that this is a positive, good thing to
do. It isn't.
Grace: What is a positive thing to do is to give people control of their
own death.
Springer: Telling some kid that he can kill himself is not the good lesson
of control to the kid. Come on!
Grace: Well, it's--Jerry, let's look at what--let's look at what Neal
Horsley is saying. He's saying, "Let's kill other people. Let's kill, like,
the entire United States so that we can have God's rule."
Springer: I'm not suggesting that just everyone else is right, also. No,
there are other people that are wrong, too. That's just as crazy as what
they're saying. But what are you doing suggesting that this is a good--that
this is a--you know what? You make what is normally a pretty positive
message, such as, perhaps, not killing animals, not procreating, all that
kind of stuff--that may be issues of validity--you are making it absurd.
People listen to that group and they say, "You know what? Everything else
you're saying is crazy. You're destroying your own beliefs."
Grace: Jerry, I think people misunderstand this issue.
Springer: Well, of course, because you've got a looney out there running
with a chicken. Go ahead.
Grace: Jerry, I do believe that suicide is everybody's right. If somebody
wants to kill themselves, I will not step in their way. I hope--you know, I
would--I would--I hope that that would be because they've considered all
the other options, but people have and people do want to choose to kill
Springer: Oh, some 17-year-old kid, let--let's say, is having problems with
his sexual identity, or just...
Grace: Because he's homosexual because people like Horsley want to
(censored) arrest him.
Springer: OK. So--so your idea is to suggest to these young people, who are
confused, who are hurt, who are feeling bad about themselves, whose
self-esteem may be low at the moment, who maybe lost a girlfriend or
boyfriend or whatever, all of a sudden, they're feeling depressed, and
suddenly, you're suggesting that this is an option for these young people?
That's exactly the kind of message they shouldn't be hearing.
Grace: Listen, Jerry, suicide is always an option for everyone. It is
really condescending to tell people what they may or may not do with their
lives. That's why we have people that want to die on machines, that's why
we have people--it's like you're not even allowed--you have no power in
this life.
Springer: Tell me about the cannibalism thing.
Grace: Cannibalism is the eating of flesh.
Springer: I know what it is. Why do you--why...
Grace: No, Jerry, it's the eating...
Springer: Tell me how that makes a--how--tell me how that--preaching that
can possibly have any relevance to anything that is anywhere near sane.
Grace: Listen, do you eat meat?
Springer: I'll repeat it: If you want people to stop eating meat, preach
vegetarianism. But what...
Grace: That's what we're doing!
Springer: No, you're suggesting that it's also OK--they are suggesting...
Grace: Mm-hmm.
Springer: ...that it's also OK for humans to eat human flesh. That's
Grace: But listen, Jerry--Jerry, if it's OK to eat a cow, if it's OK to
factory farm cows, to raise cows in what are basically concentration camps,
if that's OK, then it's just as OK to eat people who are already dead, who
are going to be embalmed and going to be thrown into the ground.
Springer: It's like saying--no, no--it's like saying--it's like saying, "I
think it's horrible to kill blacks, so from now on, let's go out and kill
Hispanics because--that's bad, also."
Grace: I'm not talking about killing people; we're talking about if people
are dead. What do we do with dead bodies, Jerry? What do we do with them?
We spend--we throw them away, we embalm them, we put them in a sealed box.
Springer: What good comes out of cannibalism? Tell me that. In one
sentence, what good comes out of cannibalism?
Grace: People that want to eat meat...
Springer: What?
Grace: People that want to eat meat out of cannibalism would get their
meat; we'd save having this hermetically sealed box in the ground. They'd
get their meat...
Springer: So they should eat another human being? You think that's good?
Grace: If that person is dead, go for it. They're dead already.
Springer: You know what? You know what? It's why when you say some things
that may make some sense, you lose the entire universe; nobody believes
what you say because...
Grace: Jerry?
Springer: ...what you say there is so crazy they're not going to believe
the serious things you say.
Grace: Yes, Jerry, I don't--Jerry, come here. Jerry, you would not have had
us on your show if we were only talking about the population issue. I would
love to talk about the population issue.
Springer: Maybe not on this show, because I admit--I admit...
Grace: I would love to; that's what this is all about for me. You called
it, I Want to Join a Suicide Cult; I'm joining an educational group that's
talking about overpopulation, and I'm answering all these stupid questions
about suicide.
Springer: Oh, there are all kinds of organizations in this world that talk
about overpopulation that don't talk about, "Let's have cannibalism." Come
OK, when we're--when we come back, we're going to bring back our other
guests and we'll have questions from the audience. Stay with us.
Springer: Welcome back. Grace, before I get to questions for the audience,
why did you decide to change--take off your dress and change your outfit?
Chuck: And why have you never done it for me?
Springer: What was that about?
Grace: Well, we were supposed--I was--I was instantly inducted into the
church on this show. I actually came to this show to be inducted t--into
the church. That's specifically what I came here for.
Springer: Yeah, well, I don't want you inducted on this show. Yeah.
Grace: And this is part of the ritual.
Rev. Korda: That's right.
Springer: What?--to be in the show, you got to take off your--to be in the
cult, you got to take off your clothing?
Grace: No, not at all.
Rev. Korda: It sure helps. And we--and we hope that when you join, Jerry,
you'll take off your clothes, too.
Chuck: I--I d--I didn't wish to hear that. Please, I...
Springer: Believe me, if you saw me, I'd be the poster child against
Chuck: Oh.
Springer: OK. Yes?
Grace: You're probably not tasty, anyway.
Chuck: Oh. Oh.
Rev. Korda: Aw.
Vauncile: I would just like to ask these people if they are...
Springer: Shh...
Vauncile: ...truly sincere about their, quote, "religion," unquote. And if
you truly believe what you're saying, are you willing to die right here on
this stage now and be quartered and be put into freezers for food?
Vermin X: Will--will you stone us to death, ma'am? Will--will you stone us
to death like the good Lord would instruct you to, stoning Sodomites?
Grace: Listen, I--I--I don't want to commit suicide. As I said before,
suicide is a pillar of the church. It is not a commandment.
Vermin X: Helpful hint.
Grace: If I choose, at some point, that I want to die, it is my right to
take control over my own death.
Vermin X: Euthanasia.
Springer: Go ahead. Shh.
Unidentified Woman #2: I just want to say that I don't remember her name.
She--you seem like a very strong woman, but I think what's happening here
is they are like a brainwashing group, just like all s--they're like
skinheads and everything else, and I think you're getting brainwashed. I
think you're very strong, and I think you should find other--other
organizations that support your beliefs, not this one. They're no good.
Grace: I have two responses to that.
Springer: Yes? Shh. What's your response?
Grace: One of them is I am--I am involved with the Voluntary Human
Extinction Movement. Everybody, look into that. Another one is--once again,
I'm being condescended to by you: I'm being brainwashed; I can't think for
myself. It's very insulting.
Jane: Honey, you insulted yourself when you took off your clothes on
national TV.
Unidentified Woman #3: My question is: First of all, why can't you be who
you really are? You're all up there being who you can't. My second thing to
say is: Have you all eaten human flesh, and if not, why are you up here
preaching that it's OK to be...
Grace: We're vegetarians; we're asking people not to eat flesh.
Woman #3: Then why are you pro--why are you saying that it's OK to be...
Rev. Korda: We already answered about--I'll answer that question.
Woman #3: ...to eat from human flesh and you're up there throwing babies
around the stage eating them?
Grace: No, no, it's--look, don't you understand? It's not OK; we're
disgusted by eating flesh; we're disgusted by eating animal flesh. What
we're saying is...
Springer: Then you wouldn't put out a brochure which tells people how to do
Grace: ...that when you eat flesh, you're a cannibal. What'd he say?
Chuck: You put out a brochure promoting...
Unidentified Man #2: I want to say, the guy in the green--I don't believe
that you're strong enough to stick with her. Because if you was strong
enough to stick with her, she wouldn't be in this predicament like she is
now. You're not a man to stick with her.
Chuck: She's a strong person.
Man #2: So why you not with her now?
Chuck: She doesn't want children! I mean...
Grace: What are you--you're--are you saying that that man...
Springer: Thank God!
Grace: ...the man should control the woman? What planet are you from?
Chuck: No.
Grace: I...
Unidentified Panelist: Next question.
Springer: Please, let's not encourage these people to procreate.
Unidentified Woman #4: I would like--I'd like--I'd like to know if anybody
dressed in black has ever been on any anti-psychotic medications, in
psychiatric institutions, or in jail? Because you belong there.
Grace: Not me.
Rev. Korda: That's very nice. Let's talk about that. Can I answer that?
Mr. Horsley: OK, Jerry...
(Unintelligible comments from panelists)
Mr. Horsley: There was a time when we were--people could actually...
Vermin X: He was in jail.
Mr. Horsley: ...stop insanity by arresting people who are advocating that
which ultimately destroys people.
Rev. Korda: However...
Springer: OK, finally, are you--Grace, are you--you want to join this
Grace: I already have.
Springer: You already have.
I'll be back with a final thought. Stay with with us.
Springer: Thank you. Let me take this opportunity to thank you all for
being with us. It's certainly different, what we heard, and--but this is
America and you have a right to at least express an opinion.
You know, I suspect most of us think this is all crazy, that these are all
a bunch of loonies playing with something short of a full deck. Clearly, to
the extent that these folks can influence vulnerable and impressionable
minds to do destructive and harmful things, they are, of course, dangerous.
Cults are, by popular understanding, viewed to be extremist, and,
certainly, what we saw today falls into that category. But in a nation
where we so pride ourselves in freedom of belief, worship and religion,
where do we draw the line between religion and cult?
I mean, look at all our major religions. They all seem to involve a
charismatic leader who has personally communicated with God, who demands to
be accepted on faith, whose traditions have included some pretty tough and,
in some cases, brutal sacrifices, whose literature is steeped in stories or
parables that seem to require great leaps of faith, be that Christianity,
Judaism, Islam--you name it. Indeed, we'd be horribly offended, and
justifiably so, if people called us, because of our religious beliefs,
crazy. And yet there is a difference here. We cross the line from religion,
which has total freedom here, to cult, where, suddenly, it's not just a
matter of what people believe.
Believe what you want, but there is a call within the doctrine from a
self-anointed leader to destructive, life-threatening behavior. There is
also--not necessarily in this cult, but certainly in others, there is
often, through brainwashing, psychological and otherwise, pressure to never
leave the group once having joined; to cut off, to varying degrees,
association with one's family and former friends.
The point is, cults are dangerous and not entitled to the protection of
religion, not because of what they believe, but because of what they entice
their adherents to do.
Till next time, take care of yourself and each other.
Audience: (In unison) Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
(Excerpt from Grace's induction after the show)
Rev. Korda: Grace, it's been a long day. We were forced to deputize you on
the show, so we're going to induct you into the Church of Euthanasia right
here, now, briefly. And we'll start by asking you are you pregnant?
Grace: No.
Rev. Korda: OK. Do you have any genetic material outside your body that you
know--that you don't know about? Do you have eggs frozen in a fertility
clinic, anything like that?
Grace: No.
Rev. Korda: OK, then, Grace, repeat after me: I...
Grace: I...
Rev. Korda: ...Grace Petro..
Grace: ...Grace Petro..
Rev. Korda: ...do hereby vow...
Grace: ...do hereby vow...
Rev. Korda: ...to not procreate...
Grace: ...to not procreate...
Rev. Korda: ...for as long as I shall live.
Grace: ...for as long as I shall live.
Rev. Korda: Grace, you are now, and always will be, a member of the Church
of Euthanasia.
Grace: Whoo! Whoo!
Chuck: Whoo! Well, I'm going to have something to tell the kids.


'who we are'

in campaign mode:

in spanish:

on video:

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