Re: <nettime> from Meatloaf to penalty Shoot Outs

Hi Michael

Patrice also contacted me off-list with the same point about Switzerland - and mentioning the Irish referendum. Solid point.

My problem is the use of media technology, specifically but not exclusively social media, and opinion polling.

I've no idea why the system works in Switzerland.

But it's clear how it failed in the UK: through the active intervention of click farms targeting specific anxieties, often with little relevance to the question at hand. Though UKIP/Brexit Party are rare among EU populists in not having clear links to Putin, the technology of targeted messaging based on profiling suggests that the technology does not produce democracy - I'd be interested to hear whether there is anything different about the Swiss case. Perhaps extracting the UK from the EU is a more significant goal, seriously weakening competition for US/Russian hegemony, and so attracts serious money and - to return to another key term - expertise.

And to repeat: a technology that opened on non-human participation in collective decisions would be a convincing argument for technological solutions. Is there anything to look out for?

sean

Sean Cubitt

Department of Media, Communications and Cultural Studies

Goldsmiths, University of London

New Cross, London SE14 6NW

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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:56:07 +0100
From: Michael Guggenheim <migug@bluewin.ch>
To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org
Subject: Re: <nettime> from Meatloaf to penalty Shoot Outs
Message-ID: <454c8e44-df33-64e5-04fb-b209a3f82d78@bluewin.ch>
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I beg to disagree, and I would love to invite you to a trip to
Switzerland, where indeed referenda are held 4 times a year on all kinds
of things, from deciding whether to build a new school or (infamously)
whether to ban minarets. Sometimes you and I may agree or disagree with
an outcome, but the last time I checked, overall policy decisions in
Switzerland were no better or worse (according to my parochial judgment)
than those of any other European country without regular referenda.

When I last checked (a week ago), Switzerland was not "frighteningly
fascistic". In fact, it is the opposite. A simple reason is that if
people are asked in referenda /repeatedly/, they /learn/ how to act in
referenda (including the fact that the state develops complex techniques
for administering them, that overcome the beginner mistakes of the
Brexit referendum (was it advisory or not? What were the options
exactly? etc.). Most importantly, they /do/ get engaged in the relevant
questions and are much better informed about issues. They also have the
possibility to decide case by case whether they agree with a certain
policy, rather than being forced to vote for a party with which they may
agree in some issues bit disagree in others.

(Also ask yourself: Are MPs better informed and do they make better
arguments than random people on the street? Answer: They do not, for the
simple reason that they are not trained to be policy makers).

best

Michael

On 23/08/2019 11:28, Sean Cubitt wrote:
>
> John writes:
>
>
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2019 08:48:41 -0700
> From: John Preston <wcerfgba@riseup.net>
> To: nettime-l@mail.kein.org
> Subject: Re: <nettime> From Meat Loaf to Penalty Shoot Outs
> Message-ID: <cc9c510bb7d1e7848da3f3df41d85f2f@riseup.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
> Technological development puts pressure on social institutions. We need
> a system of governance which encourages rapid iteration and mass
> participation, two features lacking in our current democracies.
>
> the problem is that referendums are not a viable alternative - partly
> for the reasons David gives: abandonment of evidence, argument or -
> I'd add - a commitment to the good life for all.
>
> Judiciously timed, a referendum on restoring the death penalty would
> succeed in any European country. So would bans on abortion, gay
> marriage, modest dress for Muslim women, immigration, and very
> probably heavy metal
>
> There is surely an arrogance in expertise, and a we-know-best among
> professional politicos. But to exchange that for constant (and
> compulsory?) opinion polling wouldn't change the new problem which is
> exactly that: ubiquitous real-time comment IS government by opinion
> poll, and it is frighteningly fascistic. The new national-populisms
> rely on just such technological by-passes because they know they do
> not construct the public but a plurality of publics, each of which can
> be triggered by the right (usually negative) stimulus - this is the
> whole strategy of social media marketing in the US, UK and across Europe.
>
> Sadly - since it requires far more work - the political solutions are
> the only response?to political problems. Yes, any politics in the 21st
> century must be mediated, and media techniques and technologies impact
> politics just as politics impact on technologies and techniques.
>
> The challenge is to build political media that are in service of the
> good of all - including non-humans --?a medium that allows the Amazon
> a voice, that could be interesting . . . .
>
> Sean
>
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--
----------------------------------

Michael Guggenheim
17 Popham Street
N1 8QW London
UK

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