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well I said I didn't want to start a flame and I sustained it. So
just a few considerations about simona's email.
after all I write a huge mail again, sorry, last time
First, I don't think that insulting people by email is something
brave or appropriate, I will not enter in that way. Also...I'm not
interested in "traditional" or "postmodern" categories...been
"traditional" (I don't think I'm am but ey!, you know me better)
is an insult? Finally I prefer to deal with things and not say
"this is bad" or "this is good" and those who don't think like me
are fascist.
I'm not a Podemos supporter and, for sure, my statements where
not in the same direction. I support another kind of politics and
been material is not be a "podemita" This is important for me
because I hate Podemos mainly. So, I think that a few things you
say regarding that, simply needs at least another look. I'm agree
(except with all the postmodern rhetoric) all about simona says
about Podemos. Mostly regarding their spanish-national-paternalist
position. For those who understand spanish there's a very good
debate here between Monedero (podemos "intellectual") and Ramón
Grosfogel on You tube (search ("monedereo grosfogel").
Now, I would like to finish with some things.
*) I never disrespect people's fight. Not once in all my email or
please show me where and I will retract it.
*) Regarding the "refocus" and people voting: Aside all the
emotions and so on (I don't enter here) I simply observe one
thing. With the results in hand 40% of all census and 90% in favor
of independence... I'm not sure that people "from any ideological
side (and I really mean any)" went to vote. Perhaps I'm wrong but
a lecture about this results could be that they are more an
_expression_ of anger that any other thing, of course among others.
And in this line, you are right with the "people wants to vote"
statement. Anyway, I think that interpreting this results is not
our topic.
*) The symmetry
affair: To say that both are corrupt (list, sorry for taking too
long in this) is not to say there's a symmetry. I think that
reader's know the difference between autonomic and Central
Government or can search in Wikipedia. But one of my arguments WAS
on reflecting that the Catalan government (the political stance)
try to be in symmetry and behave like a central government. Been
supported by catalonian civil society or not (more on this right
above) from the political-institutional perspective (wich was the
perspective I understand was the first email) this is a fact. I
know the relevance of civil society in all this but my focus was
more "pedagogical". I don't think that people here want a very
specific spanish debate talking about specific points.
there's an historical and legitimate independence struggle in
Catalonia that comes, at least, in the modern sense since the
civil war. But we can trace it far way beyond: in the King's
speech last week, you can read in the news that behind him
(resuming) was a painting of his ancestor (the first Borbón), who
sweep away
Catalan people (among others). That was a good message from the
king, fuck yeah!, peace and love. So the civil society movement is
old and strong.
I just want to stress that this civil society movement's
(legitimate, strong, old and transversal to class and ideology to
some extents) it's being to some extent instrumentalized by
political parties (This is not a "paternalist" or unrespectull
view. More on this above) as a weapon. In this trend, that's why
they (in first stance) ALWAYS talk about "independence referendum"
(just look their demands until things get really nasty (one month
ago approx.) always was the "independence referendum". Nor the "we
want to vote". Please, find me a "we want to vote" demand older
than 6 months. That's why I was explaining the PDCaT movement
that, by the way "you" (lets say, Catalan society, please) are not
removing. THE ARE IN THE GOVERNMENT, TODAY.
With this in mind just a "futurology". Right now there's a
"general" (is not general, comes from political parties looking
for votes, new elections and more power) "dialog" demand and
rallies claiming unity (a non sense in this situation, Catalonia
is broke, outside). And the generalitat is claiming that 3º
parties mediate (EU mainly) so...
a) To some extent, the Generalitat is creating that symmetry as
far as I get. The EU will not intervene (I really hope to be
wrong, I'm not telling what I want, I'm telling what I think is a
plausible argument, call me old-fashion) because right know in the
EU: First, the right is in charge but most important, second
there's another independence demands. I'm not going to list it
(see Manuel Valls declaration regarding this) again but it's
remarkable that almost all are territories with high level GDP.
I'm not saying that THIS is the reason. It's something that
deserves analysis. Again call me oldie.
But the main argument is that if the EU mediate with catalonia
they will open a very dangerous door for them (the political
status-quo: left and right). Personally, I hope that catalonian
people can hold, resist and opens that door. I have a fear that
this fuels extreme-right parties but that's not the point. I
insist in that I hope that catalonian people win this.
b) Under my view if there's a pure civil society movement, with
"truly" civil disobedience (yes, I'm invoking Thoreau, Gandhi,
Malcolm and so on...classic, traditional and old-school) I don't
understand why some Catalonia politics are now looking for
"dialog" or resigning to their charges when they had to deal with
the consequences. face the law and assuming consequences is one of
the most important things regarding dissidence. Of course not all,
but a good part of them are avoiding this part.
According to catalonian transition law, if the "yes" option win,
48HS later independence will be proclaimed. That time pass but
there will be a congress meeting (sorry for my English :) ) on
Tuesday...more people is demanding a "timing relaxation" to talk.
In this point I would like to stress this idea for the future.
IF this is not a top-down, there's no "instrumentalization" and
the "we want to vote" claim is true. IF the government offers more
economical autonomy or the Euskadi deal...they are going to refuse
it.
Again, sorry, I'm not going to be engaged in this anymore because
I'm not in any political party (officially or extra officially)
not I was imposing my "feelings". My aim was to improve
conversation and for sure that I'm not here to be insulted.
So lurker mode again and...if you want to ask me anything, fell
free!
Cheers to all!
I'm sorry. I'm not
very active in nettime.
But I'm in Catalonia and I've seen
too many dangerously
"traditional" analysis in this list that I need
to intervene.
I'm
sorry I can't bring many
details yet (I'm trying
to find time to write but I'm too busy
with a very fast realtime
reality right
now), but I'll try at least to bring a
change of perspective to analyse
the situation.
I would like
to ask for more caution and respect for the
people fight.
To bring some
element
to refocus your perspective I like to remember
that the 1st of October over 2 000 000 people,
nor
radical, nor corrupt, just people from any age
- I've seen teenagers and very old people
crying when they succeed to vote after
queening sin 5 in the morning to defend
the ballots-, from any ideological
side (and I really mean any) and even
wanting the independence or not, all
together fighting online and offline for
Democracy. Really. Catalonia is not
about independence. We are ready for a
level of democracy that we are not
allowed to practice and the
fight is about political freedom.
When the
analysis is from above talking about how
bad are the bad guys from both
sides and how people have no
active opinion about that, it is not
reflecting the groving
maturity of spanish civil
society , is avoiding
the degree of self organization
acheived on
the 1 of October in Catalunya
and trying to depict a symmetry
that could
relax us but that is just
not real.
There is no symmetry. There is
[fast resum->] 1) repression
and a fascist
state; 2)
people fighting in network having
greatly hacked institutions
that are now force
in some interesting
degrees to respond
to the people (of
course institution
are rotten - I
don't think anyone
here can
imaging that
could be otherwise);
3) Podemos
fighting for
its own power
and abandoning
the people.
[little note
about corruption as an
example: the
difference between
Catalunya and Spain
is that while in Spain
the PP
(most currupt party)
is
still massively
voted,
in Catalunya
PdeCat have almost disappeared.
So not everywhere
the act
of voting is used
in
the same
way. And the false equality
on the matter
of corruption
(of course both are corrupt,
but in
Catalonia we
are wining in
the effort to
desmatel it and in Spain losing)
in
the discours
it is a
fallacy, one
of the many
that are
useful to
Podemos but
not to the
people fight]
The analysis via the
left respected
categories it is
helping Podemos discours
that it is not only
wrong in the field of the
analysis of reallity but
also , once more, destroying -
with paternalism
and cooptate
imposing their
representativeness - the
transversal effort of
the people to create a
networked democracy that
control their institutions
and political parties.
I
hope I can be more
specific soon.
If
you are interested,
I wrote some more
here, before the
catalan referendum:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/simona-levi/we-just-want-to-stop-pleading
Best,
Simona Levi
El 6/10/17 a las 19:08, chml
escribió:
(excuse
my english) and the long mail
Hello...I'm ussually a lurker of this mail list, but as I live
in spain (bot I'm not spanish, born in southamerica) it's my
intention to add some ideas to the debate not to start a flame!
:)
read this as you read an skeptical opinion and lot of this are
in the news...spanish or international
Reading international press, apart from few exceptions, it's
like reading Spanish press. Bullshit. But also there's a
situation in wich "nobody knows what is going to happend".
Regarding this I would like to tell some things that there's no
present in the mainstream media. I will split it in points to
organize it better and try to avoid argumentative chaos)
*) Both governments, Central and Catalonian, are deeply corrupt:
a) Central government is the most corrupt party in all Europe
(sic). And still in government (that tells you a few things
about the conservative mind en Spain, but more on this later).
And as in Spain there's not extreme-right significantly parties,
so PP involves a lot of right-wing voters with different
approaches (catholics, ultra-catholics and spanish-nationalist,
liberals and ultraliberals and mostly but not all of Franco's
nostalgics) that are separated in another countries, so their
representation and weight in politics is different (not less,
different). Also, due to the spanish transition those who holds
the power, symbolic capital and in a good proportion economic
power are mostly the same than in Franco's era.
b) Regarding Catalonian government two things:
b.1) At least one of the parties that run the government
coalition (Junts pel Si) is deeply flawed in corruption. At the
point that the need to refund the political party (with the same
corrupts inside, of course). This party was in government almost
times since Franco and represented, and still represents, the
right capitalist entrepreneurship bourgeois of Catalonia (you
can take a look at the Pujol family). This party never want the
independence, but they used that idea to exchange political
stances, mainly with right-wing governments. So they were always
"moderate catalanist". (I'm going to resume, excuse me)
This starts to change with Artur Mas government in the
generalitat. When he arrive imposes a lot of cuts and drastic
measures due to the economic crisis, this led them to several
riots (in one of them the mossos, catalonian police, took the
eye of a woman with a gum bullet (again, sorry for my english
:)...
b.2) due to the first independence referendum and the
political crisis, in the next election according to the pools
there were going to loss the government. So they stated this
joint venture (Junts pel Si) with the support of ERC (Left
republicans of catalonia) and, outside the platform, CUP,
anti-capitalist...you can imagine that. So the only program was
independance. It's important to know, regarding this, that
according to pools never in the history of Catalonia, not once
until now, the "yes" would be a winning option.
*) In this situation, Independence was a weapon, for both
governments, to still alive at the end of the day. Puijdemont
asking for things and exacerbating the situation (it was his
mandate, obvious). And on the other hand, for Rajoy's government
two observations.
a) Regarding the spanish electoral system, there's a prevalence
for votes outside of big cities, so voting in Madrid, Barcelona
or Bilbao worth much less than voting in Segovia, for example.
If we take in consideration this and that in Spain there's a
bunch (but a bunch) of older people you see that PP voters are:
old people (+65 precisely) and not for the main capital cities
(except Madrid province, not the city). So Rajoy's voters don't
want to know nothing about and is in Rajoy's interest to present
himself like the "spanish value holder" because that gives him
votes (a lot) and almost guarantee their government stability.
b) (this argument is on the news) The right in spain...and I'm
tempted to say that also the left, the don't know about
wining...when you win you give something to the other part. They
only know to beat, to destroy the other. In this sense the
catalan government did know that the referendum was going to be
a fail but hey use it as a negotiation weapon (this, I think,
it's deeply irresponsible). This is not a matter of referendum
yes or no, I will you there soon. Is a matter of a government
using people's belif to exchange favors (Artur Mas itself
admitted this, with other words of course). Right now, today,
the central government pass a new law so companies can get out
of catalonia real quick...so well see what happends
So...let's say, this is like House of Cards, but real. It's
disgusting, but it is like this. This situation led to an
unprecedented polarization in wich (like in many other
historical events) those who are in the middle get punch for
both sides
With all this, I will focus more on your email between lines.
El 06/10/17 a las 13:24, Patrice Riemens escribió:
Reading stuff in newspapers and others
the last few days I am getting increasingly shocked -
and worried, about what appears to be mainstream (media &
politics) opinion wrt the 'events'
in Catalonia.
What do you expect? They are media conglomerates! ;)
It boils down to something like 'Catalonians are nationalistic
fools, what they do is ramp illegal,
Spain's unity should be upheld and respected, Rajoy and state
forces act fully inside the
constitution and legality' etc.
The second part it's true, Rajoy and friends are acting inside
the constitution and the law. And that's the problem, that he is
ONLY acting inside the law and constitution when the situation
and, most of all, his position demands that he do politics. But
again, the way of doing politics for Rajoy is via the
judges...because that's what is keeping him in "alive".
And the media...well, they are in most cases following the
trends.
EU stands aside, while European leaders fall over each other
to support the Rajoy regime -
with sole exception Belgium's Michel, who's probably got 'his
ears cleaned out' (Dutch loc)
by now ...
Obvious...the EU condems the police brutality but says that is
an internal problem and should be solved with the constitutional
law...IF the EU gets involved, think what would happend with
Córcega, Euskadi, Baviera, Belgium (that why Michel talks!,
Scotland again...and the ones I', forgetting).So...personally, I
hope they get involved, because I think that the EU is a fail
like this, Spain needs a new constitution that leaves behind
Franco a all the dictatorship past and catalonian people deserve
to vote a referendum. But again...at least if in Spain we don't
have an old people gonocide, i doubt this would happen. Also,
hope I'm wrong
The insane brutality of the Spanish
police is papered over, just as is the political
steering of the 'independent' justice, but far worse, 3
centuries of oppression, culminating
in 40 years of ultra-Castillian Franquist oppression, which
almost wipped out above ground
Catalan language and culture, and finds its thinly veiled
admirators in Rajoy's Partido
Popular, are all completely forgotten.
Yes, but not only catalan! Basque people, Murcian people...in
Spain there's a lot more than the "catalan-radicals" wich, under
my humble opinion they are not the "most" rebel in spain, sorry.
In Murcia for example the PP governs, but those people have a
long anarchist tradition. Franco¡'s regime not only wiped out
catalanist...they wiped out half spain and in concrete parts,
more (in Euskadi, but also in Madrid and Galicia). So for
internal distribution that makes less difference that outside
perhaps. With this I'm not saying that there's no catalan
singularity, I'm saying that there's not the only one for sure.
And never mind millions of Catalans braving extreme odds to
exercise what is the most
fundamental democratic right: to vote and be counted. But does
the mainstream care for
democracy any longer?
Yes and this is another lesson that we have learned I think. In
first place the most iconic moment for democracy is voting and
the media don't cover that well. That's (in my view) because we
are not in democracies anymore since long time ago. And on the
other hand, honestly, this referendum idea was not executed in
good ways. finnally, voting for what you want, when you want and
wathever you want is not a democratic right in contemporary
democracies...I don't now none that says that ;)
With a mainstream like that, who needs extremists and
terrorists for the descent into the
unknown? And if Madrid indeed pulls out the 'nuclear option',
Article 155 of the Spanish
Constitution: total take over over Catalonia - and Madrid is
on the verge of doing so, I´d
say: pack up for the beach - or Barcelona.
Please, don't say Madrid...there a bunch of people in Madrid who
fight with catalonian people, wants changes and support the
referendum!
Finally...if you reach that point I would ask a question:
Don't you miss, in all this, material politics? let's
say...instead of "transversal", "cultural" and "indentitarian"
politics. Some really left and material politics to improve
people lives and wealth?. Because I can tell you that this is a
"must" not only in Catalonia, and if they get their independence
in this way, they are going to be (unfortunately) economically
really fucked up.
Cheers all the same from Christiania,
bit of a weird place in this context.
Cheers from a Madrid citizen staying in Ankara!
and yes...would love to be there!
p+2D!
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