chml on Sun, 8 Oct 2017 21:58:34 +0200 (CEST)

[Date Prev] [Date Next] [Thread Prev] [Thread Next] [Date Index] [Thread Index]

Re: <nettime> Catalonia and mainstream opinion

well I said I didn't want to start a flame and I sustained it. So just a few considerations about simona's email.

after all I write a huge mail again, sorry, last time

First, I don't think that insulting people by email is something brave or appropriate, I will not enter in that way. Also...I'm not interested in "traditional" or "postmodern" categories...been "traditional" (I don't think I'm am but ey!, you know me better) is an insult? Finally I prefer to deal with things and not say "this is bad" or "this is good" and those who don't think like me are fascist.

I'm not a Podemos supporter and, for sure, my statements where not in the same direction. I support another kind of politics and been material is not be a "podemita" This is important for me because I hate Podemos mainly. So, I think that a few things you say regarding that, simply needs at least another look. I'm agree (except with all the postmodern rhetoric) all about simona says about Podemos. Mostly regarding their spanish-national-paternalist position. For those who understand spanish there's a very good debate here between Monedero (podemos "intellectual") and Ramón Grosfogel on You tube (search ("monedereo grosfogel").

Now,  I would like to finish with some things.

*) I never disrespect people's fight. Not once in all my email or please show me where and I will retract it.

*) Regarding the "refocus" and people voting: Aside all the emotions and so on (I don't enter here) I simply observe one thing. With the results in hand 40% of all census and 90% in favor of independence... I'm not sure that people "from any ideological side (and I really mean any)" went to vote. Perhaps I'm wrong but a lecture about this results could be that they are more an _expression_ of anger that any other thing, of course among others. And in this line, you are right with the "people wants to vote" statement. Anyway, I think that interpreting this results is not our topic.

*) The symmetry affair: To say that both are corrupt (list, sorry for taking too long in this) is not to say there's a symmetry. I think that reader's know the difference between autonomic and Central Government or can search in Wikipedia. But one of my arguments WAS on reflecting that the Catalan government (the political stance) try to be in symmetry and behave like a central government. Been supported by catalonian civil society or not (more on this right above) from the political-institutional perspective (wich was the perspective I understand was the first email) this is a fact. I know the relevance of civil society in all this but my focus was more "pedagogical". I don't think that people here want a very specific spanish debate talking about specific points.

there's an historical and legitimate independence struggle in Catalonia that comes, at least, in the modern sense since the civil war. But we can trace it far way beyond: in the King's speech last week, you can read in the news that behind him (resuming) was a painting of his ancestor (the first Borbón), who sweep away Catalan people (among others). That was a good message from the king, fuck yeah!, peace and love. So the civil society movement is old and strong.

I just want to stress that this civil society movement's (legitimate, strong, old and transversal to class and ideology to some extents) it's being to some extent instrumentalized by political parties (This is not a "paternalist" or unrespectull view. More on this above) as a weapon. In this trend, that's why they (in first stance) ALWAYS talk about "independence referendum" (just look their demands until things get really nasty (one month ago approx.) always was the "independence referendum". Nor the "we want to vote". Please, find me a "we want to vote" demand older than 6 months. That's why I was explaining the PDCaT movement that, by the way "you" (lets say, Catalan society, please) are not removing. THE ARE IN THE GOVERNMENT, TODAY.

With this in mind just a "futurology". Right now there's a "general" (is not general, comes from political parties looking for votes, new elections and more power) "dialog" demand and rallies claiming unity (a non sense in this situation, Catalonia is broke, outside). And the generalitat is claiming that 3º parties mediate (EU mainly) so...

a) To some extent, the Generalitat is creating that symmetry as far as I get. The EU will not intervene (I really hope to be wrong, I'm not telling what I want, I'm telling what I think is a plausible argument, call me old-fashion) because right know in the EU: First, the right is in charge but most important, second there's another independence demands. I'm not going to list it (see Manuel Valls declaration regarding this) again but it's remarkable that almost all are territories with high level GDP. I'm not saying that THIS is the reason. It's something that deserves analysis. Again call me oldie.

But the main argument is that if the EU mediate with catalonia they will open a very dangerous door for them (the political status-quo: left and right). Personally, I hope that catalonian people can hold, resist and opens that door. I have a fear that this fuels extreme-right parties but that's not the point. I insist in that I hope that catalonian people win this.

b) Under my view if there's a pure civil society movement, with "truly" civil disobedience (yes, I'm invoking Thoreau, Gandhi, Malcolm and so on...classic, traditional and old-school) I don't understand why some Catalonia politics are now looking for "dialog" or resigning to their charges when they had to deal with the consequences. face the law and assuming consequences is one of the most important things regarding dissidence. Of course not all, but a good part of them are avoiding this part.

According to catalonian transition law, if the "yes" option win, 48HS later independence will be proclaimed. That time pass but there will be a congress meeting (sorry for my English :) ) on Tuesday...more people is demanding a "timing relaxation" to talk. In this point I would like to stress this idea for the future.

IF this is not a top-down, there's no "instrumentalization" and the "we want to vote" claim is true. IF the government offers more economical autonomy or the Euskadi deal...they are going to refuse it.

Again, sorry, I'm not going to be engaged in this anymore because I'm not in any political party (officially or extra officially) not I was imposing my "feelings". My aim was to improve conversation and for sure that I'm not here to be insulted.

So lurker mode again and...if you want to ask me anything, fell free!

Cheers to all!

El 07/10/17 a las 12:22, escribió:

I'm sorry. I'm not very active in nettime. But I'm in Catalonia and  I've seen too many dangerously "traditional" analysis in this list that I need to intervene. I'm sorry I can't bring many details yet (I'm trying to find time to write but I'm too busy with a very fast realtime reality right now), but I'll try at least to bring a change of perspective to analyse the situation.

I would like to ask for more caution and respect for the people fight.

To bring some element to refocus your perspective I like to remember that the 1st of October over 2 000 000 people, nor radical, nor corrupt, just people from any age - I've seen teenagers and very old people crying when they succeed to vote after queening sin 5 in the morning to defend the ballots-, from any ideological side (and I really mean any) and even wanting the independence or not, all together fighting online and offline for Democracy. Really. Catalonia is not about independence. We are ready for a level of democracy that we are not allowed to practice and the fight is about political freedom.

When the analysis is from above talking about how bad are the bad guys from both sides and how people have no active opinion about that, it is not reflecting the groving maturity of spanish civil society , is avoiding the degree of self organization acheived on the 1 of October in Catalunya and trying to depict a symmetry that could relax us but that is just not real. There is no symmetry. There is [fast resum->] 1) repression and a fascist state; 2) people fighting in network having greatly hacked institutions that are now force in some interesting degrees to respond to the people (of course institution are rotten - I don't think anyone here can imaging that could be otherwise); 3) Podemos fighting for its own power and abandoning the people.

[little note about corruption as an example: the difference between Catalunya and Spain is that while in Spain the PP (most currupt party) is still massively voted, in Catalunya PdeCat have almost disappeared. So not everywhere the act of voting is used in the same way. And the false equality on the matter of corruption (of course both are corrupt, but in Catalonia we are wining in the effort to desmatel it and in Spain losing) in the discours it is a fallacy, one of the many that are useful to Podemos but not to the people fight]

The analysis via the left respected categories it is helping Podemos discours that it is not only wrong in the field of the analysis of reallity but also , once more, destroying - with paternalism and cooptate imposing their representativeness - the transversal effort of the people to create a networked democracy that control their institutions and political parties.

I hope I can be more specific soon.

If you are interested, I wrote some more here, before the catalan referendum:


Simona Levi

El 6/10/17 a las 19:08, chml escribió:
(excuse my english) and the long mail

Hello...I'm ussually a lurker of this mail list, but as I live in spain (bot I'm not spanish, born in southamerica) it's my intention to add some ideas to the debate not to start a flame! :)

read this as you read an skeptical opinion and lot of this are in the news...spanish or international

Reading international press, apart from few exceptions, it's like reading Spanish press. Bullshit. But also there's a situation in wich "nobody knows what is going to happend". Regarding this I would like to tell some things that there's no present in the mainstream media. I will split it in points to organize it better and try to avoid argumentative chaos)

*) Both governments, Central and Catalonian, are deeply corrupt:

a) Central government is the most corrupt party in all Europe (sic). And still in government (that tells you a few things about the conservative mind en Spain, but more on this later). And as in Spain there's not extreme-right significantly parties, so PP involves a lot of right-wing voters with different approaches (catholics, ultra-catholics and spanish-nationalist, liberals and ultraliberals and mostly but not all of Franco's nostalgics) that are separated in another countries, so their representation and weight in politics is different (not less, different). Also, due to the spanish transition those who holds the power, symbolic capital and in a good proportion economic power are mostly the same than in Franco's era.

b) Regarding Catalonian government two things:

    b.1) At least one of the parties that run the government coalition (Junts pel Si) is deeply flawed in corruption. At the point that the need to refund the political party (with the same corrupts inside, of course). This party was in government almost times since Franco and represented, and still represents, the right capitalist entrepreneurship bourgeois of Catalonia (you can take a look at the Pujol family). This party never want the independence, but they used that idea to exchange political stances, mainly with right-wing governments. So they were always "moderate catalanist". (I'm going to resume, excuse me)

This starts to change with Artur Mas government in the generalitat. When he arrive imposes a lot of cuts and drastic measures due to the economic crisis, this led them to several riots (in one of them the mossos, catalonian police, took the eye of a woman with a gum bullet (again, sorry for my english :)...

    b.2) due to the first independence referendum and the political crisis, in the next election according to the pools there were going to loss the government. So they stated this joint venture (Junts pel Si) with the support of ERC (Left republicans of catalonia) and, outside the platform, CUP, can imagine that. So the only program was independance. It's important to know, regarding this, that according to pools never in the history of Catalonia, not once until now, the "yes" would be a winning option.

*) In this situation, Independence was a weapon, for both governments, to still alive at the end of the day. Puijdemont asking for things and exacerbating the situation (it was his mandate, obvious). And on the other hand, for Rajoy's government two observations.

a) Regarding the spanish electoral system, there's a prevalence for votes outside of big cities, so voting in Madrid, Barcelona or Bilbao worth much less than voting in Segovia, for example. If we take in consideration this and that in Spain there's a bunch (but a bunch) of older people you see that PP voters are: old people (+65 precisely) and not for the main capital cities (except Madrid province, not the city). So Rajoy's voters don't want to know nothing about and is in Rajoy's interest to present himself like the "spanish value holder" because that gives him votes (a lot) and almost guarantee their government stability.

b) (this argument is on the news) The right in spain...and I'm tempted to say that also the left, the don't know about wining...when you win you give something to the other part. They only know to beat, to destroy the other. In this sense the catalan government did know that the referendum was going to be a fail but hey use it as a negotiation weapon (this, I think, it's deeply irresponsible). This is not a matter of referendum yes or no, I will you there soon. Is a matter of a government using people's belif to exchange favors (Artur Mas itself admitted this, with other words of course). Right now, today, the central government pass a new law so companies can get out of catalonia real well see what happends

So...let's say, this is like House of Cards, but real. It's disgusting, but it is like this. This situation led to an unprecedented polarization in wich (like in many other historical events) those who are in the middle get punch for both sides

With all this, I will focus more on your email between lines.

El 06/10/17 a las 13:24, Patrice Riemens escribió:
Reading stuff in newspapers and others the last few days I am getting increasingly shocked -
and worried, about what appears to be mainstream (media & politics) opinion wrt the 'events'
in Catalonia.
What do you expect? They are media conglomerates! ;)

It boils down to something like 'Catalonians are nationalistic fools, what they do is ramp illegal,
Spain's unity should be upheld and respected, Rajoy and state forces act fully inside the
constitution and legality' etc.
The second part it's true, Rajoy and friends are acting inside the constitution and the law. And that's the problem, that he is ONLY acting inside the law and constitution when the situation and, most of all, his position demands that he do politics. But again, the way of doing politics for Rajoy is via the judges...because that's what is keeping him in "alive".

And the media...well, they are in most cases following the trends.

EU stands aside, while European leaders fall over each other to support the Rajoy regime -
with sole exception Belgium's Michel, who's probably got 'his ears cleaned out' (Dutch loc)
by now ...
Obvious...the EU condems the police brutality but says that is an internal problem and should be solved with the constitutional law...IF the EU gets involved, think what would happend with Córcega, Euskadi, Baviera, Belgium (that why Michel talks!, Scotland again...and the ones I', forgetting).So...personally, I hope they get involved, because I think that the EU is a fail like this, Spain needs a new constitution that leaves behind Franco a all the dictatorship past and catalonian people deserve to vote a referendum. But least if in Spain we don't have an old people gonocide, i doubt this would happen. Also, hope I'm wrong
The insane brutality of the Spanish police is papered over, just as is the political
steering of the 'independent' justice, but far worse, 3 centuries of oppression, culminating
in 40 years of ultra-Castillian Franquist oppression, which almost wipped out above ground
Catalan language and culture, and finds its thinly veiled admirators in Rajoy's Partido
Popular, are all completely forgotten.
Yes, but not only catalan! Basque people, Murcian Spain there's a lot more than the "catalan-radicals" wich, under my humble opinion they are not the "most" rebel in spain, sorry. In Murcia for example the PP governs, but those people have a long anarchist tradition. Franco¡'s regime not only wiped out catalanist...they wiped out half spain and in concrete parts, more (in Euskadi, but also in Madrid and Galicia). So for internal distribution that makes less difference that outside perhaps. With this I'm not saying that there's no catalan singularity, I'm saying that there's not the only one for sure.

And never mind millions of Catalans braving extreme odds to exercise what is the most
fundamental democratic right: to vote and be counted. But does the mainstream care for
democracy any longer?
Yes and this is another lesson that we have learned I think. In first place the most iconic moment for democracy is voting and the media don't cover that well. That's (in my view) because we are not in democracies anymore since long time ago. And on the other hand, honestly, this referendum idea was not executed in good ways. finnally, voting for what you want, when you want and wathever you want is not a democratic right in contemporary democracies...I don't now none that says that ;)

With a mainstream like that, who needs extremists and terrorists for the descent into the
unknown? And if Madrid indeed pulls out the 'nuclear option', Article 155 of the Spanish
Constitution: total take over over Catalonia - and Madrid is on the verge of doing so, I´d
say: pack up for the beach - or Barcelona.
Please, don't say Madrid...there a bunch of people in Madrid who fight with catalonian people, wants changes and support the referendum!

Finally...if you reach that point I would ask a question:

Don't you miss, in all this, material politics? let's say...instead of "transversal", "cultural" and "indentitarian" politics. Some really left and material politics to improve people lives and wealth?. Because I can tell you that this is a "must" not only in Catalonia, and if they get their independence in this way, they are going to be (unfortunately) economically really fucked up.
Cheers all the same from Christiania, bit of a weird place in this context.
Cheers from a Madrid citizen staying in Ankara!
and yes...would love to be there!


#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime>  is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info:
#  archive: contact:
#  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:

#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime>  is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info:
#  archive: contact:
#  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:

#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime>  is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info:
#  archive: contact:
#  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject:

#  distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission
#  <nettime>  is a moderated mailing list for net criticism,
#  collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets
#  more info:
#  archive: contact:
#  @nettime_bot tweets mail w/ sender unless #ANON is in Subject: