| nettime's_centrist_urge on Fri, 19 Jan 2007 06:27:05 +0100 (CET) |
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| <nettime> ACT 7,8,9 DIGEST [marcelo, recktenwald, woooo] |
marcelo@brumaria.net Re: <nettime> ACT 4,5,6 DIGEST [marcelo, nico, marcelo] Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106@uni-bonn.de> Bobo dr.woooo <dr.woooo@gmail.com> re: ACT 4 RADICAL EUROPE list crosstalk aut-op-sy - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:00:25 +0100 (CET) Subject: Re: <nettime> ACT 4,5,6 DIGEST [marcelo, nico, marcelo] From: marcelo@brumaria.net hi nico, thanx for your nice - and perfectly argumented response, i could hardly be in disagreement with :)) and (ejem) sorry for possible cross-posting... the only point about which i guess we are not totally synchronized could be sumarized like this: > I'd say that even in a new Europe, citizenship cannot be extended > indefinitely, nor can a European political body defined by a European > parliament exist without border regimes - how can such an entity exist > without exclusion or control over its borders? Even an extended > citizenship is still a limited franchise. Only so many people can be > citizens (and, citizens of a state at that). No state, and no limits, > would render citizenship meaningless. And without borders one cannot > regulate citizenship. The migration of people into Europe calls > citizenship into question, and disrupts the body politic - the strains > can be seen in the racist attacks on various Muslim communities, in the > stated plan to introduce a European guest-worker program... these are > the responses to the challenge. Which is not to say that campaigns for > papers, or the end's of camps, or health care for all, etc are bad > campaigns, just that to contain the extension of services/etc within a > program for parliamentary reform is to contain the possibilities such > extensions & campaigns hold within a strong definite limit, making such > campaigns limited and doomed to failure, because they will reach the > limit of the citizen soon enough. To start from this point then, seems > to be less that radical and challenging to me... "the migration of people into europe calls citizenship into question, and disrupts the body politic"... but still, when we demonstrate in the streets with migrants, what they shout is: "we want papers" - i guess we dont have a chance: it's not one or the other, it's one *and* the other: we need to emphacize and in fact, as you say and argue very well, open moments of crises *and* have practical, reachable steps to solve what's unacceptable in people's daily living conditions - i.e. - surely we would long agree in a critique of the idea of "human rights" - but - demanding the practical respect for people's rights in "camps" or borders is in no way incompatible with fighting for the disappearance of contemporary concentration camps for migrants in europe - the same goes for the idea of "citizenship" - to demand its practical extention might put it in contradiction with - and not necessarily reinforce - its dependence on a nation-state regime within europe - even when we would largely agree on a critique of the idea of "citizenship"... > it depends on the program - an open program, not already existing with > prescribed limits, that leaves room for new idea, ways of doing and > being, processes, etc, that leaves open the possibilities of identity > (or a complete lack of) and association (or, again, disassociation) is > important. But a program to unify all such movements under a push for a > new 'radical' social-democrat program does sound like a step back to me... change laws, force the application of basic rights, and expand and change the real existing rights into new forms or rights... those are things that, at least today, have to be accomplished in parliaments for instance - even when we accept this, we don't have *any* reason to renounce to construct a different, oppositional kind of legitimate, practical, radical movements from below... - one thing is a program open to processes as our own agenda; another thing is to give a clear, exact (maybe tactically reformist) name and definition and description of what we practically need *right now* - this might sound contradictory - contemporary reorganization of european power structures is not less open, in progress, and contradictory than we are :) - to have a radical "social-democrat"-like tactical program might be a way to claim the actual respect and implementation of people's rights *and* push for the opening and deepening of the kind of crises that you describe - in solidarity, marcelo * * * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:40:02 +0100 From: Heiko Recktenwald <uzs106@uni-bonn.de> Subject: Bobo Nico wrote: << > Borders are essential for the functioning of Europe, new or old. There > can be no 'democratic space' without then, nor can a new welfare state > be funded without them. Hence, there is a contradiction in the basic > aims of the manifesto: >> I completely agree. To have democracy implies hard decisions, yes, yes, no, no, and voting and voting implies yes, yes, no, no as well. But the welfare state is another thing. It is at least softer. Gobal warming, one sun....... H. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 15:48:38 +1100 From: dr.woooo <dr.woooo@gmail.com> Subject: re: ACT 4 RADICAL EUROPE list crosstalk aut-op-sy another criticism is here https://lists.resist.ca/pipermail/aut-op-sy/2007-January/date.html subscribe to post at http://users.resist.ca/~jon.beasley-murray/aut_01.html -- the ankle bone, connected to the thigh bone ;) http://www.aut-op-sy.org http://narconews.com http://www.eco.utexas.edu/~archive/chiapas95/ http://noborder.org http://slash.interactivist.net/ http://ainfos.ca http://www.metamute.org http://lists.perthimc.asn.au/pipermail/blackgreensolidarity/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precarity http://www.metamute.org/en/Precarious-Reader https://lists.resist.ca/pipermail/ipsm-l/2005-July/000781.html http://www.deletetheborder.org http://www.nettime.org http://www.pochanostra.com/dialogues/ http://www.aspaceoutside.org/wp-content/uploads/Space_Outside_Reader.pdf http://www.prol-position.net/ http://stateofemergency.nomasters.org/ http://www.infoshop.org/inews http://www.eco-action.org/dod http://www.16beavergroup.org/drift/overview.htm - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - # distributed via <nettime>: no commercial use without permission # <nettime> is a moderated mailing list for net criticism, # collaborative text filtering and cultural politics of the nets # more info: majordomo@bbs.thing.net and "info nettime-l" in the msg body # archive: http://www.nettime.org contact: nettime@bbs.thing.net