nettime's_no-mission_digger on Sat, 20 Apr 2002 16:54:08 +0200 (CEST)

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<nettime> Generation Flash [Miller, Kanarinka]

   RE: <nettime> Generation Flash thread                                           
     Eric Miller <>                                             

   RE: <nettime> RE: RHIZOME_RAW: GENERATION FLASH  (2 / 3)                        
     "Kanarinka" <>                                              


Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 09:21:04 -0700
From: Eric Miller <>
Subject: RE: <nettime> Generation Flash thread

and lemme throw in a few thoughts here as well...
 > The Flash format spec is open-source, and has been for some time.  There 
are alternate ways to create Flash files via other authoring applications 
or from server-side scripting.  "proprietary" is not a valid descriptor.
 > I simply don't get the breasts-and-biceps tangent.  Simply because Flash 
can have a visually pleasing aesthetic, that's the only reason for its 
success?  You're saying that a poorly designed HTML 2.0 page is inherently 
superior to a well-designed Flash site by virtue of the fact that the HTML 
page is ugly but at least familiar?
 > Granted, a lot of Flash 'designers' misguidedly try to reinvent the user 
interface by having a lot of creative-yet-user-hostile interface 
metaphors.  But there's a balance to be struck between Jakob "all links 
must be blue and underlined" Nielsen and building on the increasing savvy 
of the Web user base to explore new frameworks for navigating and 
comprehending content.
 > Just as radio was originally "wireless (telegraph)" and cinema was 
"motion pictures", we build our understanding of new media within the 
context of previously existing media, a subject that Mr. Manovich has ably 
explored in his recent book.  Dismissing the format simply because it 
doesn't precisely match the functionality of previous formats is a bit 
 > Flash is more cross-platform nowadays than DHTML or other "open" 
standards.  Try using a DHTML menu in Konqueror sometime, or running CSS-P 
on your Casio PDA.
 > Check out Flash MX.  This new release of Flash addresses many of the 
accessibility and usability concerns.

hugs n' kisses,

At 01:17 AM 4/19/2002 -0400, Christopher Fahey [askrom] wrote:

>Zak wrote:
> > > The seemingly endless backlash against Flash can, in many ways, be
> > > traced to a simple dislike for the "Flash aesthetic" or the
> > > predominance of that aesthetic.
> >
> > Rubbish. The backlash against Flash is more to do with its inherent
> > un-openness and baulky, unwieldy, proprietary specification.
>"Rubbish"?!? Simmer down there, pilgrim, this ain't a debate over the
>Middle East, it's just a file format. Anyway, please note that:
>    "in many ways" != "the sole reason"

<snip />


Date: Fri, 19 Apr 2002 17:05:52 -0400
From: "Kanarinka" <>
Subject: RE: <nettime> RE: RHIZOME_RAW: GENERATION FLASH  (2 / 3)

I think it's not accurate to frame this as Flash vs. HTML debate. Flash
makes no claim to replace HTML as an internet standard. There are a host
of proprietary "web technologies" out there that do not present a threat
to HTML as we know it: flash, quicktime, beatnik, realmedia, shockwave,
and so on. 

If you want text, then HTML is still the best way to go. I think the
danger of every website being replaced by a Flash movie about the level
of every website being replaced by someone reading the website's content
over an audio file. 

The internet for better or worse has been multimedia-ized and the
technology squatters have staked their claim through these various
technologies. I personally think that the internet is way more exciting
with the addition of images, animations, videos, and sound.

So you can't open a text editor and create a Flash movie -- so what?
Show me a text editor where i can create a video or a slide show or an
audio file!

And, FYI, flash can be dynamically generated through communication with
Java Servlets, CGI Scripts, etc. (note: and i'm not talking about the
Macromedia Generator product here). 

And regarding SVG
vs. Flash: _You_ as the artist create the web. Who makes you believe you
have no choice? (And you read/post to Nettime because you care for the
culture and politics of digital networks?)

If an artwork is created in SVG and there is no one around to view it,
does it make a sound? Making digital files in a format for the most
number of people not only makes common sense but falls in line with what
the internet has always been about -- accessibility. As an artist I want
an audience larger than the tech-dork world. Net artists are already
marginalized in the art world because they use geeky machines and code.
Why make your community smaller?

I think open standards are a lovely lovely thing. I am a big fan.
However, I am also interested in creating art beyond hypertext that can
be delivered online. I am not going to wait to create my art until all
of the technologies i want to use are based on open standards and have
audiences - because you know what -- it ain't gonna happen.
Restructuring the market based software industry around open standards
and enforcing that is an admirable goal that I support in its entirety
(would certainly make many people's lives easier) but it is not my
mission and not where i want to spend my time. In the end it is a
political issue. I will always cast my vote for the people in the open
standards camp but i will not run for missionary.

(Why do digital artists always have to be the least critical consumers
of proprietary technology?)

Why do snotty hyper-texters who don't create digital imagery or
multimedia consistently devalue multimedia and pedanterize from GPL


- -----Original Message-----
[] On Behalf Of Florian Cramer
Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: <nettime> RE: RHIZOME_RAW: GENERATION FLASH (2 / 3)

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